Anybody using natural drawn comb??

[GeekBeek]

Hi guys!!

I've been looking in to factors that strengthen colonies and improve bees tolerances and improve performance.
After looking extensively at small cell options and natural comb it got me to thinking that bees on their own natural comb would be their natural size. Has anyone seen any benefits to using their own comb? And what natural cell sizes have your bees regressed back to??

Thanks guys!

 

[madasafish]

I've been using natural comb for three years in TBHs.

Benefits? Too early to say.

Cell size? Not measured yet.

If natural comb is so great, why have most feral colonies died out?

 

[Finman]

.
160 years ago beehives had only natural combs in nursed hives.

 

[GeekBeek]

Could you measure across ten cells in the brood area for me next inspection please Mad?? Im not 100% but I imagine the lack of habitat, insecticides etc, forest management. I lived abroad for many years, when we first moved back I was astonished at the lack of trees and woodland let alone the loss of any actual wilderness in the UK. I think the amount of farm land growing crops adds to the problem. Plenty of flowers at certain times of the year but not consistently. What do you think are the reasons??

 

[Little John]

If natural comb is so great, why have most feral colonies died out?

Loss of habitat. Pest control. Not being 'kept in' during spraying. Plenty of reasons unconnected with natural comb.

GeekBeek - you may be interested in the following Japanese sites (suggest using Google Translate), where natural comb is the normal way of doing things.

http://www.h6.dion.ne.jp/~kansatu/index.html
http://to.totomo.net/1028.htm

Also, check out http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/warrebeekeeping/ - natural comb is at the heart of the Warre hive system.

This may not be the best place in the world to be asking these kind of questions ...

LJ

 

[GeekBeek]

.
160 years ago beehives had only natural combs in nursed hives.

Do you use any natural comb hives Finman?

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes I like natural comb but don’t let myself get distracted with the argument if the smaller cell’s are better for the bees but simply go with natural comb as a whole is better.

 

[madasafish]

Could you measure across ten cells in the brood area for me next inspection please Mad?? Im not 100% but I imagine the lack of habitat, insecticides etc, forest management. I lived abroad for many years, when we first moved back I was astonished at the lack of trees and woodland let alone the loss of any actual wilderness in the UK. I think the amount of farm land growing crops adds to the problem. Plenty of flowers at certain times of the year but not consistently. What do you think are the reasons??

Will do tomorrow pm and post answer..

 

[Tom Bick]

Will do tomorrow pm and post answer..

Will do the same, should be interesting.

 

[Neils]

Used foundation and empty, but wired frames, in mine. I don't use foundation at all in my supers.

Advantages?
From a practical point of view, none.

From a beekeeping point of view it's been fascinating to see how and where they make cells where they want/need compared to where we encourage.

Cost can't be ignored nor can absolute assurance that the only contaminants in your wax is what's in the local environment.

Disadvantages?
If you view drone culling/selection as important in varroa IPM or for queen rearing then natural comb is inconvenient.

Initial drawn comb can be quite fragile and you have to be a half decent beekeeper to handle it. I'm being deliberately beligerant here, as a 14x12 user, given the fragility of comb is an oft quoted disadvantage of this hive type.

Everything I've read and experienced about small cell or natural cell size is, sadly, a red herring, if it worked we'd all be doing it.

 

[Norton]

At the end of summer I try to get my colonies to build a couple of combs each from a wired frame with a starter strip. Most of them build the combs perfectly. No instinct to build drone cells.

Why do I do this? Because the cell size is about 5,1 and it is obviously the natural size for my bees. This means about 12% more cells/comb. It is impossible to get residue free and non-stretched 5,1 foundation unless I go over the plastic, which I do not like at all. Also to get rid of combs over 3 years old. I colour code the tops of the frames.

 

[Polyanwood]

Do you you that bees get any benefit in terms of energy conservation from smaller cells?

I guess that it might be easier for the heater bees to keep each pupa warm if it is snuggly housed in the cell, rather than has 'spare' room? If this is true, then natural (smaller cell) comb would be especially beneficial in colder climates.

 

[drumgerry]

Interestingly Ruttner describes one of the traits of AMM as having larger bodies - I think as an adaptation to colder climates. So probably not a good idea to try to "regress" native-type bees to small cell foundation. Giving them starter strips and letting them get on with it is another matter of course.

 

[isc26]

One consideraton might be the extra ammount of energy/stores taken to make comb without foundation. This could be seen as a negative.

 

[oliver90owner]

Just the one flaw in the OP, but a BIG one. It is certainly NOT completely naturally drawn comb.

Why? Because the pitch has been ARTIFICIALLY set.
RAB

 

[Tom Bick]

At the end of summer I try to get my colonies to build a couple of combs each from a wired frame with a starter strip. Most of them build the combs perfectly. No instinct to build drone cells.

Why do I do this? Because the cell size is about 5,1 and it is obviously the natural size for my bees. This means about 12% more cells/comb. It is impossible to get residue free and non-stretched 5,1 foundation unless I go over the plastic, which I do not like at all. Also to get rid of combs over 3 years old. I colour code the tops of the frames.

That’s interesting Norton the bees do regulate when to build drone comb at different times of the year and are reluctant towards the end of the summer but I would have expected drone comb on a couple of frames placed in a hive full of foundation unless your hives have a reasonable amount of drones already.

 

[Tom Bick]

Do you you that bees get any benefit in terms of energy conservation from smaller cells?

I guess that it might be easier for the heater bees to keep each pupa warm if it is snuggly housed in the cell, rather than has 'spare' room? If this is true, then natural (smaller cell) comb would be especially beneficial in colder climates.

Perhaps polyandwood if you go along with the heater bee theory or not but the hives will have something like 20-25% drone comb that will require heating, or can they develop on a cooler temp? Drone comb is disbursed through out the hive and I have not noticed any pattern to it as yet apart than it does tend to be away from the centre of the hive.

 

[Chris B]

I use maybe 25% natural comb in supers - not because I plan it that way but sooner or later I run out of ready kit and put empty frames between drawn frames just for speed. It works fairly well and the comb often withstands extracting if it's attached on all edges.

Yesterday I checked a colony that had almost starved a week ago. I'd given them fondant and now they look fine, but I noticed they've now built ridges of wild comb on top of the frames. These bees had loads of empty comb space but they still built wax - there must be some sort of benefit to comb building.

 

[beeno]

Do you you that bees get any benefit in terms of energy conservation from smaller cells?

I guess that it might be easier for the heater bees to keep each pupa warm if it is snuggly housed in the cell, rather than has 'spare' room? If this is true, then natural (smaller cell) comb would be especially beneficial in colder climates.

Hi Polyanwood,
I am possibly wrong here, but I thought the bee was fed/grew to the size of the cell? That's why one gets mini drones sometimes when a drone has been raised in a worker cell?

 

[Tom Bick]

I use maybe 25% natural comb in supers - not because I plan it that way but sooner or later I run out of ready kit and put empty frames between drawn frames just for speed. It works fairly well and the comb often withstands extracting if it's attached on all edges.

Yesterday I checked a colony that had almost starved a week ago. I'd given them fondant and now they look fine, but I noticed they've now built ridges of wild comb on top of the frames. These bees had loads of empty comb space but they still built wax - there must be some sort of benefit to comb building.

I think big benefits Chris and think all beekeepers especially hobby beekeepers should place just wired supers with starter strips on their hives and if they then want to try it in the BB.

If people are worried about lost honey the sacrifice in a few jars just may be returned with a greater return.