Another witch burning

[Finman]

I found a daddy mouse once

They use to have big balls. Easy to notice.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Surely that swings both ways though... No extra yield with extra propolis = unless harvesting propolis, is there a benefit to getting sticky fingers every time you inspect?

If you cast your picture a little wider...

More propolis equals more resistance to disease equals more bees, and less time and cost mollycoddling them and organising their replacement.

 

[Beesnaturally]

It seems possible to me that bees could be using propolis to protect the wood of their home against decay in the same way we paint ours. Crevices are likely to harbour funghi so will be treated first. In addition since it is hydrophobic propolis prevent condensation soaking into the wood.
It is a significant drain on resources to collect propolis so I would think bees will naturally only deposit it where they ancipate issues. In my polynucs I get propolis deposited in gaps between frames/boxes but hardly ever on the walls which of course are hydrophobic.

The video is clear: propolis controls a range of harmful micro-organisms and significantly reduces parasite load, including the all-important (some think) varoa.

In a natural setting a cost-benefit ratio will govern the amount of propolising by natural selection.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I watched The SBA’s webinar last night
He’s a photo of what she has tried in some of her hives.
@pargyle
I know you and I amongst others paint their hives inside but I wondered whether you might join me in doing this to a box or two so that the bees might make their own propolis envelope.
View attachment 30668

Well the box is done.
I have two swarms overwintering in nucs. They both came from the bees in the tree in the garden. I shall unite them and they can live there.

 

[pargyle]

Well the box is done.
I have two swarms overwintering in nucs. They both came from the bees in the tree in the garden. I shall unite them and they can live there.

I only have Poly hives ... routing out rills in poly is not going to be easy ....I'll have to think about that....

 

[Erichalfbee]

I only have Poly hives ... routing out rills in poly is not going to be easy ....I'll have to think about that....

Yes I realised that after I posted. Ooops

 

[pargyle]

Yes I realised that after I posted. Ooops

I was thinking about attaching a thin sheet of rilled timber liner to the front and back walls of a poly hive ... there's room if I dispense with the dummy board. Obvisously I can't do the same with the side walls as it would reduce the bee space outside of the side bars. Interesting to see what they will do with it....

 

[Wilco]

If you cast your picture a little wider...

More propolis equals more resistance to disease equals more bees, and less time and cost mollycoddling them and organising their replacement.

I think there's a certain amount of seeing what you want to see here. Your point only holds true if there's actually an issue that requires this (i.e. Both that propolis confers a demonstrable protective effect to the bees against certain pathogens and that those pathogens are real and contemporaneous threat to the health of the bees). Otherwise it's like making someone wear full body armour in a country at peace- one could equally argue the journeys spent collecting propolis could instead be spent collecting nectar or pollen, both of which equal more bees.

I believe previously @Erichalfbee suggested the conclusion was that there wasn't a difference in yield which makes me suspect that, unless you are harvesting the propolis to sell, it's making the beekeeper feel better rather than actually making the bees better.

 

[Finman]

The video is clear: propolis controls a range of harmful micro-organisms and significantly reduces parasite load, including the all-important (some think) varoa.

When a swarm is introduced into a new hive why it does not become sick? Numerous diseases attack on the colony.

... what is that argument " some think"

 

[rolande]

I like the idea of propolis having a beneficial role in colony health and am quite happy to buy into the whole thing however, it's worth noting that carnica, a subspecies anecdotally reported to have generally low brood disease issues is also known as a low use propoliser (although admittedly I've seen open mated Carnica daughters which are anything but low users).

 

[Beesnaturally]

I think there's a certain amount of seeing what you want to see here. Your point only holds true if there's actually an issue that requires this (i.e. Both that propolis confers a demonstrable protective effect to the bees against certain pathogens and that those pathogens are real and contemporaneous threat to the health of the bees). Otherwise it's like making someone wear full body armour in a country at peace- one could equally argue the journeys spent collecting propolis could instead be spent collecting nectar or pollen, both of which equal more bees.

I believe previously @Erichalfbee suggested the conclusion was that there wasn't a difference in yield which makes me suspect that, unless you are harvesting the propolis to sell, it's making the beekeeper feel better rather than actually making the bees better.

That's all interesting, but I like to listen to scientists who have made studies of the specific issue. To counter your approach an analogy: to take away the bees natural defences is rather like wiping out the human immune system on the basis that we can't see any threats. Breeding against propolis making does that. 'Fixing' their defence systems for them stops them building them themselves in future.

One day you will get this.

Yes, there is always a cost to defences. Bees expend energy building stings because evolution has found the cost worthwhile.

 

[Beesnaturally]

When a swarm is introduced into a new hive why it does not become sick? Numerous diseases attack on the colony.

... what is that argument " some think"

Good question. Sometimes it does. It all depends on the the twin factors of bee resistance and pathogen contamination.

Varroa is widely considered to be the greatest present problem to bee health - on the grounds that continuous medication is required to control it.

(For most beekeepers)

Seriously, is anyone going to engage with the point: breeding away from propolis building is a bad idea?

 

[Finman]

Good question. Sometimes it does. It all depends on the the twin factors of bee resistance and pathogen contamination.

Varroa is widely considered to be the greatest present problem to bee health - on the grounds that continuous medication is required to control it.

(For most beekeepers)

Seriously, is anyone going to engage with the point: breeding away from propolis building is a bad idea?

You invent all those theories just like that. How are you able to do that?

Yes. I know varroa. It killed my first hive 40 years ago.

There is no sign or evidence, that propolis can hinder varroa.

 

[JamezF]

There is no sign or evidence, that propolis can hinder varroa.

From a quick skim through, the publishers of this paper seem to think it does.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2021.2101

James

 

[Wilco]

That's all interesting, but I like to listen to scientists who have made studies of the specific issue. To counter your approach an analogy: to take away the bees natural defences is rather like wiping out the human immune system on the basis that we can't see any threats. Breeding against propolis making does that. 'Fixing' their defence systems for them stops them building them themselves in future.

One day you will get this.

Yes, there is always a cost to defences. Bees expend energy building stings because evolution has found the cost worthwhile.

I don't breed for or against propolis so thanks for the patronising tone but you're jumping to conclusions about people you have no idea about - please deflate your ego a little.

I would like to see some peer reviewed papers that support your view that breeding against propolis adversely impacts bee health/productivity.

 

[roche]

From a quick skim through, the publishers of this paper seem to think it does.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2021.2101

James

Really interesting link, thanks

 

[pargyle]

From a quick skim through, the publishers of this paper seem to think it does.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2021.2101

James

That's really interesting ... one more nail in the coffin of those who insist that bees that propolise are bad ... and also those who seem to think that propolis is something that has to be scrubbed or burned off their hives on an annual basis.

My Treatment Free bees propolise for England so that's one more factor in why they survive and thrive.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes I never clean boxes unless there’s been disease. You can see how bees put propolis down round brood cells. There must be a reason. Even honey cells have propolis in them.

 

[Finman]

Yes I never clean boxes unless there’s been disease. You can see how bees put propolis down round brood cells. There must be a reason. Even honey cells have propolis in them.

Reason is that the brood box is too cold.
I know the phenomenom, but it is very rare in my hives

I have never seen, that bees propolisize super frames.

OK Eric, you do ypur hives have mites, when bees do that way?

And that habit has been born thousands of years ago. It has not aroused during last 30 years varroa period. I bet so.

But actually it it is same to me, what you believe about propolis. It is a real miracle!!!

Honeysbees have 32 known diseases, what propolis does not kill.
.

 

[Erichalfbee]

OK Eric, ypu do not have mites, when bees do that way?

Oh I have mites and I treat for them.
as for propolis in supers has anybody rendered wax down from an old super. Don’t you find propolis floating on the top?