Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[NiallD]

In my experience, chalk brood is very much indigenous to the local unimproved bees in Ireland, sometimes to the extent that they prove unviable. It made me change my approach quite a few years ago and I don't think much has changed. It is completely absent in buckfast type bee , at least in the initial F1/F2 crossings, beyond which I don't go. I only see it when an uninvited swarm takes up residence in the occasional empty hive. I generally requeen these.
It would be very possible to produce a C/B resistant strain of Amm if the necessary resources and expertise were employed. The damp weather trope is a bit of an excuse.

As for queen rearing I do grafting using a cloke board and on to mating in mini-nucs . I much prefer these to apideas and will over winter a lot of queens in them for spring requeening. I can cycle them out 2-3 times over the season and don't have to draw resources from my production colonies. I do have about 30 apideas but rarely use them except when I have a glut of queen cells.

To each their own.

 

[Rory Fields]

Learning to manage apideas is a bit of a faff. Grafting and raising cells is the easy part in many ways. I guess like anything it will become second nature.
So what our group did was to have an apidea set up with fondant in the reservoir. Then we’d shake nurse bees into a plastic bowl - give a quick swirl and shake and a misting of water with a hand spray. We’d scoop 300ml of bees up out of the bowl and into the upturned apidea and then drop a marked virgin queen in straight after. Then we kept the apideas closed but vent open in a dark place before setting them up in a mating apiary. This was in a wooded area so they were protected from direct sun.
Then we waited for the queens to be mated and topped up with fondant as necessary.
Mating was very dependent on weather - as to be expected. We had quite reasonable levels of mating I would say - especially considering the weather.
I would say it’s very easy for newly mated queens and their mini colonies to abscond though - so careful timing must be observed and I would say that was our biggest failing. You should have a clear plan for each queen and act in a timely fashion. Also some queens were mated very late. Which causes its own problems - trying to requeen or make up nucs in late September is less than ideal so I have a couple of queens still in Apideas with really the only choice now to see if they can overwinter in them. From what I’ve heard - this is rarely that successful.
Late matings give less time to assess the offspring of the newly mated queens so for some it will be next year before we can see if there is any yellow banding.

There’s lots to it in many ways so I’m kind of skimming over it. The most important thing was to get started and so begin the learning process!

This is invaluable, thanks for taking the time to explain it all. I'm still v much at the splitting two frames into a nuc stage, but you encourage me greatly!

 

[Lislarybees]

The 2 frame would probably serve my purpose better and everything will depend on what I am confronted with come spring, broodwise. This about timing queens and absconding, how do you manage that ? My thoughts are that the apideas and 2 frame nucs would need an early season start to avoid being weak once wasp season kicks in. Based on what you say I am inclined towards the 2 frames. How long does an apidea take to strengthen to a small nuc ? a lot to think on. Thank you

If it’s not big numbers of queens you need I think a two frame nuc is the way to go.
An apidea can fill with brood quickly once a queen has mated - you can expand it by taking out the feeder and putting in more frames. You can then add a super for more space. I know people that do this and overwinter these.
An apidea can also become too full of stores quickly or by the same token low on stores quickly.
I don’t have a big wasp problem where my mating apiary is located but I could see them being a problem somewhere else.
When using apideas in future I will try to get the queen into a waiting nuc as soon as she’s mated and the brood looks healthy. I wil try to avoid the supers.
I’m in no way an expert on the use of apideas though - just my limited first seasons experience

 

[Rory Fields]

If it’s not big numbers of queens you need I think a two frame nuc is the way to go.
An apidea can fill with brood quickly once a queen has mated - you can expand it by taking out the feeder and putting in more frames. You can then add a super for more space. I know people that do this and overwinter these.
An apidea can also become too full of stores quickly or by the same token low on stores quickly.
I don’t have a big wasp problem where my mating apiary is located but I could see them being a problem somewhere else.
When using apideas in future I will try to get the queen into a waiting nuc as soon as she’s mated and the brood looks healthy. I wil try to avoid the supers.
I’m in no way an expert on the use of apideas though - just my limited first seasons experience

Have you experience of or might you be tempted by something like this queen rearing nuc from Thorne, or even the Abelo equivalent? Compatibility of frames is such a faff on - I bought some dirt cheap made up Smith frames (I run NAtionals) and even though they're workable, it really brought home to me how inefficient and wasteful beekeeping could easily become without compatibility everywhere possible.

 

[Lislarybees]

In my experience, chalk brood is very much indigenous to the local unimproved bees in Ireland, sometimes to the extent that they prove unviable. It made me change my approach quite a few years ago and I don't think much has changed. It is completely absent in buckfast type bee , at least in the initial F1/F2 crossings, beyond which I don't go. I only see it when an uninvited swarm takes up residence in the occasional empty hive. I generally requeen these.
It would be very possible to produce a C/B resistant strain of Amm if the necessary resources and expertise were employed. The damp weather trope is a bit of an excuse.

As for queen rearing I do grafting using a cloke board and on to mating in mini-nucs . I much prefer these to apideas and will over winter a lot of queens in them for spring requeening. I can cycle them out 2-3 times over the season and don't have to draw resources from my production colonies. I do have about 30 apideas but rarely use them except when I have a glut of queen cells.

To each their own.

In my experience, chalk brood is very much indigenous to the local unimproved bees in Ireland, sometimes to the extent that they prove unviable. It made me change my approach quite a few years ago and I don't think much has changed. It is completely absent in buckfast type bee , at least in the initial F1/F2 crossings, beyond which I don't go. I only see it when an uninvited swarm takes up residence in the occasional empty hive. I generally requeen these.
It would be very possible to produce a C/B resistant strain of Amm if the necessary resources and expertise were employed. The damp weather trope is a bit of an excuse.

As for queen rearing I do grafting using a cloke board and on to mating in mini-nucs . I much prefer these to apideas and will over winter a lot of queens in them for spring requeening. I can cycle them out 2-3 times over the season and don't have to draw resources from my production colonies. I do have about 30 apideas but rarely use them except when I have a glut of queen cells.

To each their own

Personally I would take ‘unimproved’ over Buckfast any day. To each their own


I listened to a regen-ag podcast recently where a retired citrus grower was talking about his life in the industry. His family runs one of the only organic citrus farms in Florida.
He told a story about how the industry was nearly wiped out a couple of times in the 80’s by severe frosts. Farmers that wanted to replant were encouraged to only use trees grafted onto rootstock that had been purged of all known viruses/pathogens by scientists working in the state fruit research institute.

In the meetings promoting these new rootstocks this guys father (even more experience in the citrus industry again) said to anyone that would listen that he thought these new rootstocks would only cause problems in the future. Now the whole citrus industry in Florida is battling a terrible disease called Greening. A highly infectious bacteria that kills nearly all trees within a few years. This citrus guy is convinced there’s a direct link (that and the massive amounts of chemical treatments used on the trees).

I guess what I’m trying to illustrate is that the relationship between organism health and disease threat is highly complex.

Nearly every modern industrial food system is suffering from either poor health in the organism being produced or the system of production is having a negative impact on the environment itself. Or in fact all of the above.
Beekeeping is no different.

 

[Lislarybees]

Have you experience of or might you be tempted by something like this queen rearing nuc from Thorne, or even the Abelo equivalent? Compatibility of frames is such a faff on - I bought some dirt cheap made up Smith frames (I run NAtionals) and even though they're workable, it really brought home to me how inefficient and wasteful beekeeping could easily become without compatibility everywhere possible.

NIHBS gave our group a couple of poly queen rearing nucs but we didn’t use them. Just didn’t get around to it.
The big thing I would say is that queen rearing with Apideas is quite time intensive unless you have a big pool of people working together to share the jobs. It was hard fitting this form of queen rearing in around work, young kids etc. with the small group we had.

 

[NiallD]

Apideas are used by a lot of commercial queen breeders where they have the time to work them to the tight schedule they require. For the smaller operator the like of 2-3 frame nucs or mini-plus hives offer a lot more time flexibility and are much more forgiving. Also they replicate a natural colony much more accurately having both brood and bees in all stages of development plus adequate honey and pollen stores from the off. I feel they produce a better mated queen but that's only my opinion. They are certainly easier to introduce successfully as they will be in full lay and more than 28 days old.

 

[Penninetrader]

If it’s not big numbers of queens you need I think a two frame nuc is the way to go.
An apidea can fill with brood quickly once a queen has mated - you can expand it by taking out the feeder and putting in more frames. You can then add a super for more space. I know people that do this and overwinter these.
An apidea can also become too full of stores quickly or by the same token low on stores quickly.
I don’t have a big wasp problem where my mating apiary is located but I could see them being a problem somewhere else.
When using apideas in future I will try to get the queen into a waiting nuc as soon as she’s mated and the brood looks healthy. I wil try to avoid the supers.
I’m in no way an expert on the use of apideas though - just my limited first seasons experience

I think what you have told us is of value and eliminates a lot of early day learning. Experience in my book is invaluable. I wonder how many wish your venture or journey well, no answer required just a thought.. Thank you once again

 

[Penninetrader]

Personally I would take ‘unimproved’ over Buckfast any day. To each their own


I listened to a regen-ag podcast recently where a retired citrus grower was talking about his life in the industry. His family runs one of the only organic citrus farms in Florida.
He told a story about how the industry was nearly wiped out a couple of times in the 80’s by severe frosts. Farmers that wanted to replant were encouraged to only use trees grafted onto rootstock that had been purged of all known viruses/pathogens by scientists working in the state fruit research institute.

In the meetings promoting these new rootstocks this guys father (even more experience in the citrus industry again) said to anyone that would listen that he thought these new rootstocks would only cause problems in the future. Now the whole citrus industry in Florida is battling a terrible disease called Greening. A highly infectious bacteria that kills nearly all trees within a few years. This citrus guy is convinced there’s a direct link (that and the massive amounts of chemical treatments used on the trees).

I guess what I’m trying to illustrate is that the relationship between organism health and disease threat is highly complex.

Nearly every modern industrial food system is suffering from either poor health in the organism being produced or the system of production is having a negative impact on the environment itself. Or in fact all of the above.
Beekeeping is no different.

Without being specific, it has been my observation of nature that exposed to threat it invariably finds the correct response or adaptation. Intervention is OK as long as you separate that from the natural way to allow each their course over an extended period.

 

[Curly green finger's]

If it’s not big numbers of queens you need I think a two frame nuc is the way to go.
An apidea can fill with brood quickly once a queen has mated - you can expand it by taking out the feeder and putting in more frames. You can then add a super for more space. I know people that do this and overwinter these.
An apidea can also become too full of stores quickly or by the same token low on stores quickly.
I don’t have a big wasp problem where my mating apiary is located but I could see them being a problem somewhere else.
When using apideas in future I will try to get the queen into a waiting nuc as soon as she’s mated and the brood looks healthy. I wil try to avoid the supers.
I’m in no way an expert on the use of apideas though - just my limited first seasons experience

It’s possible to use bigger mini nucs I’ve made some kieler type ones which are home made two of these frames side by side are the same as a national brood frame i winter small colony’s in these with out any extensions and I know a few people who winter loads stacked on top of each other.

 

[Lislarybees]

It’s possible to use bigger mini nucs I’ve made some kieler type ones which are home made two of these frames side by side are the same as a national brood frame i winter small colony’s in these with out any extensions and I know a few people who winter loads stacked on top of each other.

Thank you for the suggestion. Definitely helps to get different insights. There will be a good bit of planning done over the winter for next season

 

[Lislarybees]

Without being specific, it has been my observation of nature that exposed to threat it invariably finds the correct response or adaptation. Intervention is OK as long as you separate that from the natural way to allow each their course over an extended period.

I think we can see that playing out with Varroa resistance in Ireland. Although resistance is maybe the wrong term. ‘Living with successfully’ is maybe better.

The main factors allowing so many beekeepers to go treatment free here I think are.

A stable population of a single subspecies (albeit threatened).

Less movement of bees than in many countries.

Definitely less movement of genetics.

A wild population of the native subspecies.

Low hive density (this is something I only considered recently speaking to an Italian beekeeper and beekeeping scientist - he thinks potentially the density of hives in Italy and on main land Europe would never allow for natural adaptation to Varroa because the shear volume of mites in the environment is too high). I’m not sure I agree with this. I think if the four points above were achieved then adaptation to living with Varroa would occur.

Just in terms of Buckfast bees. I am quite sure a population based on the underlying genetics would develop Varroa adaptation and live successfully in the wild. But again movement of bees would have to stop and continued crossing would have to stop. Over time more of the Amm side of the cross would dominate in the genetics or more of the Ligustica - depending on the local climatic conditions.

The question would be why would you let that happen when the native subspecies still exist.

 

[Penninetrader]

I think we can see that playing out with Varroa resistance in Ireland. Although resistance is maybe the wrong term. ‘Living with successfully’ is maybe better.

The main factors allowing so many beekeepers to go treatment free here I think are.

A stable population of a single subspecies (albeit threatened).

Less movement of bees than in many countries.

Definitely less movement of genetics.

A wild population of the native subspecies.

Low hive density (this is something I only considered recently speaking to an Italian beekeeper and beekeeping scientist - he thinks potentially the density of hives in Italy and on main land Europe would never allow for natural adaptation to Varroa because the shear volume of mites in the environment is too high). I’m not sure I agree with this. I think if the four points above were achieved then adaptation to living with Varroa would occur.

Just in terms of Buckfast bees. I am quite sure a population based on the underlying genetics would develop Varroa adaptation and live successfully in the wild. But again movement of bees would have to stop and continued crossing would have to stop. Over time more of the Amm side of the cross would dominate in the genetics or more of the Ligustica - depending on the local climatic conditions.

The question would be why would you let that happen when the native subspecies still exist.

Not every point just a couple that jump out at me, density in my area is low and the wild population probably exceeds what we might call domesticated. The drone mating areas seem key to me. Commercial bee farmers have too many pressing needs to experiment so I guess the research and development will be down to people such as yourself and hopefully supported by scientists. In the shorter term it will be people and areas allowing enough safeguarding of the native bee that will be key in the longer term. Commercial viability will determine the longer term success, there will be much resistance. I hope there are enough devoted to the long haul because it will be.

 

[Lislarybees]

Not every point just a couple that jump out at me, density in my area is low and the wild population probably exceeds what we might call domesticated. The drone mating areas seem key to me. Commercial bee farmers have too many pressing needs to experiment so I guess the research and development will be down to people such as yourself and hopefully supported by scientists. In the shorter term it will be people and areas allowing enough safeguarding of the native bee that will be key in the longer term. Commercial viability will determine the longer term success, there will be much resistance. I hope there are enough devoted to the long haul because it will be.

There are definitely areas of the UK where there are wild living colonies that have learned to live with Varroa.

Beesnaturally has many posts talking about his own experiences with treatment free. He knows what he’s at. To a far greater degree than many on this forum that think they do.

The genetics of these bees are most likely quite mixed. Ideally beekeepers in these areas would introduce Amm colonies to their apiaries and start to move the entire population back to Amm.

I remember reading in a paper by Victoria Buswell that the genetic makeup of bees in parts of Cornwall had moved back to largely Amm in the space of time separating two sampling rounds. I guess that reflects the work of groups like B4. https://www.b4project.co.uk/

The UK just needs more groups working together like this. I’ve referenced this before but I did find Willie Robson from Chainbridge Honey saying he was looking at an Amm Queen Rearing programme very heartening.

 

[Curly green finger's]

There are definitely areas of the UK where there are wild living colonies that have learned to live with Varroa.

Beesnaturally has many posts talking about his own experiences with treatment free. He knows what he’s at. To a far greater degree than many on this forum that think they do.

The genetics of these bees are most likely quite mixed. Ideally beekeepers in these areas would introduce Amm colonies to their apiaries and start to move the entire population back to Amm.

I remember reading in a paper by Victoria Buswell that the genetic makeup of bees in parts of Cornwall had moved back to largely Amm in the space of time separating two sampling rounds. I guess that reflects the work of groups like B4. https://www.b4project.co.uk/

The UK just needs more groups working together like this. I’ve referenced this before but I did find Willie Robson from Chainbridge Honey saying he was looking at an Amm Queen Rearing programme very heartening.

Not just looking but it is in progress

 

[Penninetrader]

There are definitely areas of the UK where there are wild living colonies that have learned to live with Varroa.

Beesnaturally has many posts talking about his own experiences with treatment free. He knows what he’s at. To a far greater degree than many on this forum that think they do.

The genetics of these bees are most likely quite mixed. Ideally beekeepers in these areas would introduce Amm colonies to their apiaries and start to move the entire population back to Amm.

I remember reading in a paper by Victoria Buswell that the genetic makeup of bees in parts of Cornwall had moved back to largely Amm in the space of time separating two sampling rounds. I guess that reflects the work of groups like B4. https://www.b4project.co.uk/

The UK just needs more groups working together like this. I’ve referenced this before but I did find Willie Robson from Chainbridge Honey saying he was looking at an Amm Queen Rearing programme very heartening.

I am sort of suggesting that identifying drone mating areas that have a strong amm gene presence would be helpful to expand queen production that over time would produce the ripple on the pond effect.Some analysis of feral populations in these areas and inspections of their nests regarding varroa might be quite revealing

 

[Michael Palmer]

In my experience, chalk brood is very much indigenous to the local unimproved bees in Ireland, sometimes to the extent that they prove unviable. It made me change my approach quite a few years ago and I don't think much has changed. It is completely absent in buckfast type bee , at least in the initial F1/F2 crossings, beyond which I don't go. I only see it when an uninvited swarm takes up residence in the occasional empty hive. I generally requeen these.
It would be very possible to produce a C/B resistant strain of Amm if the necessary resources and expertise were employed. The damp weather trope is a bit of an excuse.
To each their own.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I agree with this. Colonies with an elevated hygienic response, HYG, will never show any chalk. Any stocks or strains of honey bee
can be selected for HYG. It doesn't matter it they're Amm or Ligustica or Carnica or Buckfast or whatever. If you are raising queens to improve
the colonies in your apiaries, or for sale, do look into the Freeze Killed Brood assay. Once you have chosen your potential breeders, they are tested. Only those testing at the top of the list, all else being equal, should be used as breeders. That to me is the proper way of dealing with chalkbrood.
If you all are buying your queens from commercial breeders, insist they select for HYG stock.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I agree with this. Colonies with an elevated hygienic response, HYG, will never show any chalk. Any stocks or strains of honey bee
can be selected for HYG. It doesn't matter it they're Amm or Ligustica or Carnica or Buckfast or whatever. If you are raising queens to improve
the colonies in your apiaries, or for sale, do look into the Freeze Killed Brood assay. Once you have chosen your potential breeders, they are tested. Only those testing at the top of the list, all else being equal, should be used as breeders. That to me is the proper way of dealing with chalkbrood.
If you all are buying your queens from commercial breeders, insist they select for HYG stock.

Do you have a link Michael for me to browse over because I have been trying to select from a selected few colony’s, but advise from a friend on here I need to do it from all of them.
Thanks
Mark

 

[Swarm]

If it’s not big numbers of queens you need I think a two frame nuc is the way to go.
An apidea can fill with brood quickly once a queen has mated - you can expand it by taking out the feeder and putting in more frames. You can then add a super for more space. I know people that do this and overwinter these.
An apidea can also become too full of stores quickly or by the same token low on stores quickly.
I don’t have a big wasp problem where my mating apiary is located but I could see them being a problem somewhere else.
When using apideas in future I will try to get the queen into a waiting nuc as soon as she’s mated and the brood looks healthy. I wil try to avoid the supers.
I’m in no way an expert on the use of apideas though - just my limited first seasons experience

Sounds like you had a very interesting and rewarding year regardless of the poor weather.
Our own experience with queen rearing is much the same, apideas and grafting is more labour intensive and not really necessary for the average beekeeper raising queens to improve their own stock. I think we achieved better results using three frame mating nucs and judicious use of double screen boards, the queens were able to crack on with laying with no fuss or worry and introduction is much easier with mature queens but again, most of the new queens are simply upgraded into nucs and then hives, only a few go the introduction route.
I generally have chosen queens in triple brood configuration by late April / early May and depending on colony status, I will rearrange the nest. Sometimes I sort the older brood above an access board before changing it to a double screen board and adding a frame or two of eggs. I like this approach as it fills the top box with young bees and there are more to follow once the board is in place and only sealed brood is present, two frames of eggs is ample for options to split and also harvest cells. Sometimes I just rearrange the brood and go straight for the double screen board and remove the top box when cells are drawn.
As an example from a colony this year, I fitted a double screen board in early May and returned four days later to leave them with open cells only. I left the box in place until the cells were capped, left one and harvested some for the incubator before moving it to its own floor and stand. My brood boxes contain nine frames so I figured removing nine frames of brood and bees would check the mother colony and I was quite surprised to find this wasn't the case and at the end of May I rearranged the sealed brood above an access board and three supers, the boxes were all stuffed with bees. A few days later, when I was happy all the brood in the upper box was definitely sealed, I added two frames of eggs making it an eleven frame box. I harvested another cell and split the top box away to two nucs with a sealed cell in each.
Again, far from checking the original colony, I had to give her a second brood box and two more supers, she soon had these full of bees and at the end of June I found a charged cell in the upper box. I broke it down but found a single, charged cell on two more inspections. Not at all happy, I decided to move the queen away to a nuc and she is now in a three tier nuc arrangement going into Winter. The original hive was left as a double brood and successfully requeened and produced five very full supers, I've not seen her yet but did see BIAS.
The first split I removed built up strongly and needed a second brood box and the other two are going into Winter as eleven frame, single box colonies.
One colony is now five and the work involved was minimal and really very easy.
The apideas were a mixed bunch by comparison some had introduced virgins and harvested cells while others had grafted cells. They were all populated with a scoop of young bees after being shaken into a container with a light spray. Fondant as feed and kept in the dark, in a garage. Quite a few went AWOL and needed replacing later.
A couple of virgins brought on in the incubator were run into three frame nucs (basically sealed brood, pollen and spare comb with a pound jar of light syrup as a feeder) and one or two others were introduced to queenless colonies from failed matings.
My friend might give apideas another go next year but I don't think I'll bother, maybe I'm just lazy but I think my bees seem very happy and do a better job with a simple approach.
I really think queen rearing is a part of beekeeping that everyone should try, full supers are nice but your own queens are far more rewarding.