Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Apiarist]

... There are occasionally a few ginger bands here and there in some but most colonies are uniform, dark bees. I wouldn't pay for DNA testing, I just took advantage of an opportunity to get colonies tested, again out of curiosity to confirm or dismiss my suspicions.

At the farm apiary ...none of them were Amm, all local queens raised at the farm....

Swarm,
are you saying that you had an opportunity to submit some of your bees for DNA testing and the results came back that they were not Amm? Meaning a score of less than 90%.

On a side note: You guys do know that the English names given to bees are just nicknames, they're not supposed to be taken literally, as in Black (or Dark) Bee - research has found that the Amm that are all dark have less Amm DNA than bees with colour in the first two tergites.
As as for the statement "

 

[Apiarist]

Thinking too negatively.
I wonder if there is any pure sub species these days?...

err... yes!
With reference to Amm, most of Eastern Europe last time I read the research, not to mention numerous other places, Tasmania, Ireland, I could go on, but it's too late.

 

[Mabee]

I’ve spent some time changing queens in my apiary this year, I was being chased from the apiary most days and not really enjoying my time with them so have requeened with AMM queens from different sources. I am hoping that going forward to let the bees raise their own but needed a change in genetics first! All my hives are much better behaved and a pleasure to work with, and productive! Anyway, a nice close up of one of the girls for reference.

View attachment FullSizeRender.MOV

 

[Swarm]

Swarm,
are you saying that you had an opportunity to submit some of your bees for DNA testing and the results came back that they were not Amm? Meaning a score of less than 90%.

On a side note: You guys do know that the English names given to bees are just nicknames, they're not supposed to be taken literally, as in Black (or Dark) Bee - research has found that the Amm that are all dark have less Amm DNA than bees with colour in the first two tergites.
As as for the statement "

That's right, the request was for bee samples from local queens.
At 6% below the threshold, they fell into the category mentioned by mbc earlier.

 

[Antipodes]

err... yes!
With reference to Amm, most of Eastern Europe last time I read the research, not to mention numerous other places, Tasmania, Ireland, I could go on, but it's too late.

Are Tasmania's (in the Black Bee Reserve), the purest?

 

[Ian123]

Are Tasmania's (in the Black Bee Reserve), the purest?

You’ve got some interesting mixes out there.
https://extensionaus.com.au/professionalbeekeepers/kangaroo-island-bees/

 

[Apiarist]

Are Tasmania's (in the Black Bee Reserve), the purest?

All I know is that from the honey bees that were tested - the ones that were not headed by imported (meaning moved around the island or brought from outside the island) queens were ALL Amm bees (meaning 90% or plus).

I'm not a great fan of the term 'purity' in relation to genetic testing, I wonder what would happen if beekeepers start DNA testing themselves... those of us in northern Europe may find our bees are more 'pure' in their subspecie than we are in ours! Anyway we tried that in the 1930/40's ... didn't go so good, interesting to note that the Nazi's only required 90% 'purity' as the thresh hold to avoid being taken to the camps... Karl von Frisch (of the bee dance fame) 'only' got the 75% mark, his research into the bees literally saved him... but like MaBee has intimated - genetic diversity is better!

 

[Lislarybees]

I’ve spent some time changing queens in my apiary this year, I was being chased from the apiary most days and not really enjoying my time with them so have requeened with AMM queens from different sources. I am hoping that going forward to let the bees raise their own but needed a change in genetics first! All my hives are much better behaved and a pleasure to work with, and productive! Anyway, a nice close up of one of the girls for reference.

View attachment 33977

Hi Mabee,
Wishing you every success with your Amm colonies! Can I ask what kind of bees are generally kept by the beekeepers in your area? Do you have access to isolated mating sites or are your bees likely to become hybridised in a couple of years?

 

[Mabee]

Hi Mabee,
Wishing you every success with your Amm colonies! Can I ask what kind of bees are generally kept by the beekeepers in your area? Do you have access to isolated mating sites or are your bees likely to become hybridised in a couple of years?

Thank you! It’s hard to say, of the beekeepers I know they keep mainly dark bees but only a small percentage will be members of the local associations. My local association, although small, is hoping to run an isolated mating apiary next year and have AMM or local strains.

I have 3 apiary sites in a triangular area, between 1 and 3 miles apart, I know there are 3 apiaries of dark bees in the middle and just outside of this owned by other beekeepers and it’s not too densely populated with other bees so that is a positive!

 

[Beesnaturally]

Thank you! It’s hard to say, of the beekeepers I know they keep mainly dark bees but only a small percentage will be members of the local associations. My local association, although small, is hoping to run an isolated mating apiary next year and have AMM or local strains.

I have 3 apiary sites in a triangular area, between 1 and 3 miles apart, I know there are 3 apiaries of dark bees in the middle and just outside of this owned by other beekeepers and it’s not too densely populated with other bees so that is a positive!

Sounds good, but will you be treating?

 

[Mabee]

Sounds good, but will you be treating?

For varroa? I treat, yes.

 

[Apiarist]

That's right, the request was for bee samples from local queens.
At 6% below the threshold, they fell into the category mentioned by mbc earlier.

Swarm, were you told the Mitochondrial DNA of your queens that were producing the 84% Amm?

Just interested if the female lineage was mellifera or ligustica (likely Buckfast) or carnica???

 

[Do224]

Here’s an attempt at a close up of my (suspected) AMM bees

View attachment IMG_8956.MOV
View attachment IMG_8959.MOV

 

[Lislarybees]

Thank you! It’s hard to say, of the beekeepers I know they keep mainly dark bees but only a small percentage will be members of the local associations. My local association, although small, is hoping to run an isolated mating apiary next year and have AMM or local strains.

I have 3 apiary sites in a triangular area, between 1 and 3 miles apart, I know there are 3 apiaries of dark bees in the middle and just outside of this owned by other beekeepers and it’s not too densely populated with other bees so that is a positive!

That sounds very promising! 2023 will be an exciting year. Hopefully you can keep everyone on the same page.

 

[Beesnaturally]

For varroa? I treat, yes.

So your putative Amms will be killing off any naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral actual Amms that might be around. (And any other naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral colonies)

That doesn't sound very good for the local ecology does it?

 

[Erichalfbee]

So your putative Amms will be killing off any naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral actual Amms that might be around. (And any other naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral colonies)

That doesn't sound very good for the local ecology does it?

The same as any other treating beekeeper?
The type of bee, black orange or putative doesn’t matter?

 

[Mabee]

So your putative Amms will be killing off any naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral actual Amms that might be around. (And any other naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral colonies)

That doesn't sound very good for the local ecology does it?

It appears that you have decided to castigate me as my beekeeping practice doesn’t align with yours (mine and many others) by creating ‘killer bees’, maybe you are just looking for an excuse for an argument today or have had a bad day in general?

I thought this blog was about keeping AMM’s. Maybe be a good idea to start a blog or thread about treatment free to continue your discussion?

I may or may not contribute.

 

[Erichalfbee]

@Beesnaturally
Please. This is a blog to discuss a common interest. I suggest you shift your interest in it to your own blog or your own thread. You are simply stirring a hornets nest here.
Have some consideration please.

 

[Swarm]

Sorry everyone, I had to be away from home and I've just got back to this.

"For those interested in" should be enough, or at least I thought it should be, that those who are not or only want to cause disruption, would not contribute.
I will sift through today's posts and remove irrelevant, unnecessary ones.

Conservation is racism? Unbelievable, I've never heard anything so ridiculous.

To answer Beesnaturally,
I'm more interested in discussing near native/native Amm.

 

[Into the lions den]

Conservation is racism? Unbelievable, I've never heard anything so ridiculous.

Now you are the one at it. I have never attacked conservation.......I *specifically* took issue with the term 'genetic poisoning'. It might be about bees but you can make excuses for that smuggest of posters all you like, but racism (albeit reflected onto another species) it most definitely is.. at least in my book.