Aggressive 2nd Gen Buckfast

[Skyhook]

So can someone explain to me how commercial Buckfast breeders actually do it? Do they literally AI queens, or was that a joke Pete? Or do they just have a large apiary of Buckfast bees (as far as possible from other apiaries and wild colonies!) and assume that all matings are with other Buckfast bees

No they really do. More often referred to as II (Instrumental Insemination) Done either by a breeder with really tiny hands, or more usually a clampy standy thing where the queen is held in a clamp various instruments are controlled by screw adjusters (logical when you think about it)

 

[Firefly]

a breeder with really tiny hands

C'mon - now you're pulling the new guy's leg

Seriously - thanks for the info (and Crg). I'm going to keep my eyes out for more details - and probably _will_ get a chance to visit the breeders in Hook Norton at some point

 

[sugarbush]

The queen is gassed with C02 and sucked head first into a small tube so only her butt sticks out. Then seamen from multiple selected drones is mixed together and injected into the rear of the queen. If the breeder has small hands it is done similarly to a cow, A glove is put on up to the shoulder......

 

[Firefly]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]PETRUCHIO Come, come, you wasp; i’ faith, you are too angry. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]KATHARINA If I be waspish, best beware my sting. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]PETRUCHIO My remedy is then, to pluck it out. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]KATHARINA Ay, if the fool could find it where it lies. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]PETRUCHIO Who knows not where a wasp does wear his sting? [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In his tail. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]KATHARINA In his tongue. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]PETRUCHIO Whose tongue? [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]KATHARINA Yours, if you talk of tails: and so farewell. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]PETRUCHIO What, with my tongue in your tail? nay, come again. Good Kate; I am a gentleman. (2. 1. 209-219)[/SIZE][/FONT]​

 

[hedgerow pete]

there are two types of bees in africa and the middle east i have had the chance to play with.

firstly lets get the one set of ideas out of the way as i am always asked, have i ever pllayed with african killer bees, NO, THEY WERE PRODUCED IN BRAZIL AS A CROSS BREEDING PROGRAME and so i have never meet them

there is the small sahara honey bee , which is the base of the africanised bee tormenting the usa and the larger afrifcan honey bee

the larger is like the standard honey bee we know and use the smaller is the aggressive one, the smaller bee is favoured because its two main plusess are its great honey production and prevention of robbing ( ie very angry)

the first time i meet them was in saudi and then sudan when i worked over there and then in many other areas inc djibouti and in kenya and ethiopia. in saudi they come in lorrys loaded with filing cabinate type hives and in africa any thing from logs to fridges and wooden hives.

crg has also brought up some other points.

to keep a strain of bees pure or very close to or to improve i strongly belive that II is the only way to keep some form of control to the breeding plan, any thing else is very prone to natural alteration by sods law

buckfast are a brilliant bee breed and bro. adam did the best he could in the methods he had. i have always found when people cross the pure strain type bee with any form of other bee they seam to throw a genetic wobbly and one of its traits are exaggerated, for me personaly it is normaly the defencive gene!!!

do i have the skill to breed good queens , no i dont as i proved this year, with my complete failure of an open breeding programe with a AMM style type bee i was working on, do others , proberly?

as for the perfect bee, does such a holy grail exist. personal i think we all have differant opinions on whats wanted i am sure my style of bee would fit very few other bee keepers

I had several hives of a reasonable style of AMM bee that i tried to , 1 expand numbers of hives and 2 to improve the stock,

even with flooding the area with drones i still lost the gamble and ended up losing alll most the lot because they went way to angry even for me to use.

but saying that several other beekeepers i have spoken to of late have all had breeding problems this year, has the increase in beekeepers made the chances of an unplanned cross breed more likely. i know that there are many more hives local to me than were here last year and thats where my breeding programe went wrong i think.

can you safely open breed in the uk main land with a high degree of certainty, i dont know! but i am sure that thread would cause some serious debate if it was ever started up

 

[Crg]

there are two types of bees in africa and the middle east i have had the chance to play with.

firstly lets get the one set of ideas out of the way as i am always asked, have i ever pllayed with african killer bees, NO, THEY WERE PRODUCED IN BRAZIL AS A CROSS BREEDING PROGRAME and so i have never meet them

Calling them killer bees is over sensationalism.

there is the small sahara honey bee , which is the base of the africanised bee tormenting the usa and the larger afrifcan honey bee

Scutellata is the basis of africanised bees, it's found in the south not around the sahara region.

the larger is like the standard honey bee we know and use the smaller is the aggressive one, the smaller bee is favoured because its two main plusess are its great honey production and prevention of robbing ( ie very angry)

Bees don't get angry.

buckfast are a brilliant bee breed and bro. adam did the best he could in the methods he had. i have always found when people cross the pure strain type bee with any form of other bee they seam to throw a genetic wobbly

When you cross any two population you get hybrid vigour - and not all crosses "throw a genetic wobbly". You can easily buy Buckfast crossed with Cecropia or Italian for example.

 

[Norton]

Hello,
The bee populations in north east Africa and the Middle East are jementica. Populations further south are adansonii, scutellata, littorea, monticola types in various high altitude areas and capensis.
The "Buckfast" strains in the southern USA appear to have been polluted by AHB genes, hence the increase in aggressiveness.
Best regards
Norton

 

[sugarbush]

Hello,

The "Buckfast" strains in the southern USA appear to have been polluted by AHB genes, hence the increase in aggressiveness.
Best regards
Norton

Not the case. I can buy a Buckfast queen from well within AHB territory and she be so mild mannered I can work the hives without a suit on, but the minute her open mated daughter takes over it is all out war on everything.

I am too far north for them to be picking up AHB genes by open mating in my area and the aggressiveness would show through the 1st gen queen if she had ahb in her, and it doesn't.

Also it is a crime to transport AHB across state lines and the USDA keeps pretty close eye on queens being sold through interstate sales. They come with USDA inspection certificates and everything.

I can assure you 100% there is no AHB in US buckfast stock... I have gotten some from Canada as well and they have the same temperament 2nd gen as the US stock. the Canadian stock was imported some 20 years later then the US stock, back when our border was sealed with Canada.

 

[Crg]

Not the case. I can buy a Buckfast queen from well within AHB territory and she be so mild mannered I can work the hives without a suit on

There is rumours that the Buckfast stock in the US isn't as docile, so it's good to hear that's not the case.

 

[Norton]

Weavers sell Buckfast bees or their offspring and Texas is well within the AHB area. Russel sell them too and their area is also AHB. What about all the colonies sent to the almonds and these then disperse to the four corners of the USA. I don't think that it's possible to control the hundreds of thousands of colonies that go for almond pollination.
If US Buckfasts have become aggressive and AHB is not involved then they obviously have a problem with their selection methods. Actually my first experience with Buckfast bees was 1986, they came from Weavers and were open mated to Italian drones. They were very good and really showed me what could be done with bees and breeding. These were some of the last queens ever to be exported from the USA to the UK.

Best regards
Norton.

 

[keith pierce]

As part of our beginners course we promote the local or native bee and tell about the main species of bees and their pros and cons. We also cover buckfast and what happens when they cross out to the local population.
I think that it is not only unfair but bordering on crimimal to give a unknowing beginner, buckfast bees, knowing that they are taking them into the heart of amm territory and not tell that their little angles are going to turn into tyre bursting psychopaths. For the most of us, beekeeping is suppost to be a hobby that we enjoy and look forward to, and you are not going to have this with buckfast bees as they will go from one extreem of gentelness to a level of aggression that is frightning. I know of beginners that got out of beekeeping in their third year after starting of with buckfasts

 

[Crg]

As part of our beginners course we promote the local or native bee and tell about the main species of bees and their pros and cons.

So you tell them the pros and cons of honey bees, bumblebees, and solitary bees?

 

[keith pierce]

So you tell them the pros and cons of honey bees, bumblebees, and solitary bees?

Sorry, I dont know what you mean.
Are there pro and cons of keeping bumble and solitary bees.

 

[sugarbush]

Weavers sell Buckfast bees or their offspring and Texas is well within the AHB area. Russel sell them too and their area is also AHB. What about all the colonies sent to the almonds and these then disperse to the four corners of the USA. I don't think that it's possible to control the hundreds of thousands of colonies that go for almond pollination.
If US Buckfasts have become aggressive and AHB is not involved then they obviously have a problem with their selection methods. Actually my first experience with Buckfast bees was 1986, they came from Weavers and were open mated to Italian drones. They were very good and really showed me what could be done with bees and breeding. These were some of the last queens ever to be exported from the USA to the UK.

Best regards
Norton.

Weaver no longer does Buckfast, they have developed their own lines now with stock from Australia. They lost 1000s of hives early in 2000-2001 and I think most of their Buckfast stock was whiped out. The issue with US Buckfast stock is that it is the same stock for the last 40 years... Nothing new has come into the country.

The rumor here is that Buckfast Abby isn't propagating or licensing the line anymore anyway. So I imagine they will disappear in the very near future.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Our Buckfast line comes from Bill Ferguson in Ontario, Canada. They are not related to other USA domestic Buckfast.

Some domestic queen breeders refer to one of their genetic lines as Buckfast. Some of them open mate their queens in areas that the USDA has found Africanized (A.m. Scutellata). Others have imported drone sperm and used it on their local virgin queens. This may change the characteristics of their local line, but how true they are to the Buckfast is hard to say. Genetics have a funny way sometimes. Improvement is also not something that comes over night or in the insemination of one virgin queen.

The Ferguson stock has been through the very cold Ontario winters, and has been hygienic tested for the last 20 years. The stock was brought directly from the Dartmore isolated mating yard (UK) around 1990, and is now Ontario raised.http://www.douglasfarm.net/buckfast.htm

The issue with US Buckfast stock is that it is the same stock for the last 40 years... Nothing new has come into the country.

So not the same as B Adam ended up with then.

 

[dilys]

Sorry, I dont know what you mean.
Are there pro and cons of keeping bumble and solitary bees.

Keith, I think Crg was nitpicking your semantics. All our honey bees are the same species but are different subspecies. Strictly speaking you probably meant that your association teaches about the different subspecies rather than different species.

In my experience all hybrids can be unpredictable and often extremely aggressive - especially the F2 generation. The problem is not confined to Buckfasts although their crosses are the worst I have come across. In my view the only easy to keep bees that differ from those that are around you is to requeen every year but while you are doing that your drones are spoiling your neighbours' bees. It's best if everyone in a particular area or association could agree to keep compatible bees but such co-operation is a rarity in beekeeping.

Dil

 

[sugarbush]

Our Buckfast line comes from Bill Ferguson in Ontario, Canada. They are not related to other USA domestic Buckfast.


The Ferguson stock has been through the very cold Ontario winters, and has been hygienic tested for the last 20 years. The stock was brought directly from the Dartmore isolated mating yard (UK) around 1990, and is now Ontario raised.http://www.douglasfarm.net/buckfast.htm

You are correct. Mine come from Ferguson as well, I already have my 12 ordered from them for June 2012.

 

[Crg]

Keith, I think Crg was nitpicking your semantics. All our honey bees are the same species but are different subspecies.

Not exactly nitpicking is it? There is a large and important difference between species and subspecies.

 

[jasonahood]

Not exactly nitpicking is it? There is a large and important difference between species and subspecies.

A particularly important difference when acting as a mentor to a learner.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

The rumor here is that Buckfast Abby isn't propagating or licensing the line anymore anyway. So I imagine they will disappear in the very near future.

Buckfast Abbey itself hasn't been breeding for many years