Breeder Queens and genetic classification

[Wingy]

Help me out here. Is my understanding correct?
If you buy a breeder Queen of known parentage both mother and drones then this is classed as F0 - right?
So all its offspring will be F0 genetics ?
Now if you produce queens from this am I correct in thinking the queens will again be F0, but if open mated offspring will be F1 ?
So the further along you go the Queen will always be one line better than her offspring.
So if you buy in an open mated F1 Queen does that mean her offspring are F2 ?

 

[JamezF]

If you buy a breeder Queen of known parentage both mother and drones then this is classed as F0 - right?

Good so far...

So all its offspring will be F0 genetics ?

No. You've not accounted for the drones that the bought queen mated with.

James

 

[Wingy]

Good so far...



No. You've not accounted for the drones that the bought queen mated with.

James

But you do know the drones she mated with either isolated or inseminated

 

[JamezF]

But you do know the drones she mated with either isolated or inseminated

It's possible that you meant to say that, but it's not in your original post. The only information you gave as known are the parents (mother and drones) of the queen you bought.

Even so, if the purchased queen is F0 because she comes from a given set of parents, then the next generation (from the purchased queen) will be F1. The only possible exception I can think of might be if the purchased queen is mated with drones from the same queen used to mate her mother, like line-breeding. I don't know if there's any specific notation for that.

James

 

[Wingy]

.

Even so, if the purchased queen is F0 because she comes from a given set of parents, then the next generation (from the purchased queen) will be F1.

James

This doesn’t make sense unless I’m missing something?
F0 Queen = known parents both Queen mother & drones
So why would the next generation be F1? As the F0 Queen is mated as above so her offspring are known. If a Queen is selected at this stage she should also be F0 virgin if then isolated or inseminated mated again with known drone genetics this would continue the F0 line. However if open mated the Queen herself will still be F0 (known parentage) but her offspring would be F1 as it’s their drone genetics that are unknown
Or at least that was my understanding

 

[RJC]

.

This doesn’t make sense unless I’m missing something?
F0 Queen = known parents both Queen mother & drones
So why would the next generation be F1? As the F0 Queen is mated as above so her offspring are known. If a Queen is selected at this stage she should also be F0 virgin if then isolated or inseminated mated again with known drone genetics this would continue the F0 line. However if open mated the Queen herself will still be F0 (known parentage) but her offspring would be F1 as it’s their drone genetics that are unknown
Or at least that was my understanding

F stands for 'filial' generation; the offspring from mated parents. The offspring queen would continue to be F0 if she were cloned, but not if she is mated, since she will not be identical to her mother.

 

[JamezF]

F stands for 'filial' generation; the offspring from mated parents. The offspring queen would continue to be F0 if she were cloned, but not if she is mated, since she will not be identical to her mother.

Quite. Think of the number in F0, F1 etc. as the number of generations from a known starting point.

James

 

[Swarm]

Best not to think of any 'F' grading.

 

[Wingy]

Ok, the bit I’m having difficulty getting my head around is how a queen changes from being born F0 and virgin to being mated. Surely it’s just the offspring that would change?

For example:
Pedigree Border terrier bitch (F0) mated with pedigree border dog (F0) = pedigree Border pups (F0)
Take 2 of the bitch pups and breed 1 with another pedigree Border dog (F0) does not have to be the same dog as its father but any dog with the correct pedigree line. Pups will again be pedigree Border (F0)
Breed the other with a mongrel of unknown breed lines and the pups will be cross bred 50% Border and 50% unknown (F1)
This does not stop the mother from being a pedigree Border and she will still be (F0) it’s just her offspring that change and become (F1)

 

[fian]

Ok, the bit I’m having difficulty getting my head around is how a queen changes from being born F0 and virgin to being mated. Surely it’s just the offspring that would change?

For example:
Pedigree Border terrier bitch (F0) mated with pedigree border dog (F0) = pedigree Border pups (F0)
Take 2 of the bitch pups and breed 1 with another pedigree Border dog (F0) does not have to be the same dog as its father but any dog with the correct pedigree line. Pups will again be pedigree Border (F0)
Breed the other with a mongrel of unknown breed lines and the pups will be cross bred 50% Border and 50% unknown (F1)
This does not stop the mother from being a pedigree Border and she will still be (F0) it’s just her offspring that change and become (F1)

The point is that genetic recombination occurs during the union of gametes, and in bees this is particularly high. During recombination, chromosomes fragment and rejoin, altering the allelic distribution of genes. This allelic distribution affects physical expression (phenotype).

 

[Swarm]

Ok, the bit I’m having difficulty getting my head around is how a queen changes from being born F0 and virgin to being mated. Surely it’s just the offspring that would change?

For example:
Pedigree Border terrier bitch (F0) mated with pedigree border dog (F0) = pedigree Border pups (F0)
Take 2 of the bitch pups and breed 1 with another pedigree Border dog (F0) does not have to be the same dog as its father but any dog with the correct pedigree line. Pups will again be pedigree Border (F0)
Breed the other with a mongrel of unknown breed lines and the pups will be cross bred 50% Border and 50% unknown (F1)
This does not stop the mother from being a pedigree Border and she will still be (F0) it’s just her offspring that change and become (F1)

F1 hybrids are just plant classifications.

 

[JamezF]

Pedigree Border terrier bitch (F0) mated with pedigree border dog (F0) = pedigree Border pups (F0)

No. It's a relative classification. The offspring of F0 parents will always be F1 because that's how it's defined to work. But, if say someone buys a puppy to start breeding from, they might well "re-label" it as their F0.

James