Advice on how to get onto a double brood

[picton farm]

I have a question but hope I wont be shot down in flames or considered very inexperienced for asking. I have been plodding along with my nationals on standard broods for a long time but each year they do not lay honey down in the centre of the first super in a number of the hives. I have always assumed that they need more brood space but responded by moving frames around in the super until they are all full. I dont really want to use two frame sizes for brood and so when they show signs of wanting to swarm i then create an artificial swarm and recombine them later to keep them strong through the winter.
.....However.....
This year I want to get as many onto double broods as possible so that I can start some nucs off by removing frames ones they are strong.
....My question is how early am i likely to be able to chose which ones to build up? Do i wait until they show me they want more space or do I get them on double brood early on and expect them to respond to the extra space? ( left to my own devices I would probably wait until they need it)

It is usually when they are working on the rape that they seem to need more space but I am wondering whether i can encourage an early build up by feeding and perhaps using pollen patties.

My reason for asking the forum is that i always blunder through and do ok but I have not changed what I do much since I started because all I have needed to do was stand still with the same no of hives. I watch the bees and try to respond and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt but overall the result is ok, I get enough honey and overwinter more or less the same no of hives each year which is all I have wanted to do. Each year the bees teach me more than I can imagine but they chose my lessons, not me!
This year it matters more that I can increase the number of hives than it does that I get a lot of honey.

I am quite nervous about putting this question out there so go easy on me you lot! I am not a total novice and do read around things as well as blundering ( I will always feel like a blunderer until the bees stop surprising me and as I expect that to NEVER happen I will therefore always be a blunderer). I would just like to know from people who have done something before I try something new.

Thanks in advance

 

[tberni]

Hello Picton Farm

If your main priority is to increase your hives and make up nucs rather than honey, then feed your hives lots and lots of sugar syrup on a double brood box and provided that your colony is strong and your queen is very good, this will encourage her to produce prolific amounts of brood. Do make sure that your strictly on top of your hives and incontrol of them though, or they will swarm. I have done this is the past and the results were very very pleasing. Good luck.

 

[Finman]

.
It was just discussion about early spring build up.

How early you can.... It depends totaly on bees, how the colony grow and from where it starts.

From brooding start (my hives) it takes 2 months that I can add more room.

In USA they speak 6 weeks.

Douple brood means that you let the queen lay in douple brood and you gives such frames as you like.

If you put foundations along boath sidewall of the box, you se when bees start to draw new combs. No reason to force them to do that.

In spring I allways add the second brood box under the brood area that heat do not rise to the empty box. Bees enlarge the brood area downwards when they are ready. In summer I add a new box between brood area and existing super.

 

[Finman]

then feed your hives lots and lots of sugar syrup on a double brood box .

It surely not go that way. It is out of all honey bee nutrition theories.

 

[picton farm]

Having read what was said in the other thread, is that 2 months with use of pollen patties or naturally?

 

[Finman]

Having read what was said in the other thread, is that 2 months with use of pollen patties or naturally?

If the original question was, how to get double brood, pollen patty is not a right answer.

Exactly, why you need double brood?

My hives have 6 boxes in midd summer. Half of my hives winter in douple brood. I like to winter them all in douple, but they are not all so good.

To get early yield you need to feed protein, as I have read from UK forums.

Early means your rape. To me it means dandelion + gardens.

 

[picton farm]

If the original question was, how to get double brood, pollen patty is not a right answer.

Exactly, why you need double brood?
I want to be able to increase my number of colonies as simply as possible


To get early yield you need to feed protein, as I have read from UK forums.
ok, but by yield you mean honey. I am not bothered about honey this year so much as bees so I should just let them tell me when they need another box?

Early means your rape. To me it means dandelion + gardens
That helps me understand how we compare
Thankyou

 

[Hombre]

FWIW,
If you feed your bees to increase numbers and when you consider them to be doing well, take a second box of preferably drawn wax or foundation to put on top and split the nest between the boxes and continue to feed, keeping a keen eye out for swarm cells.

With 13 colonies, I imagine that you could run between 3 and 5 for honey production to get a reasonable crop and still have 10 colonies to run purely for bee increase.

 

[picton farm]

THanks

 

[Midland Beek]

I shudder at the thought of beeks removing supers from a standard National hive. What in the way of honey does it leave the bees? In fact, remove a super from a single National brood and it might contain a load of pollen. Get pollen in your supers and that is the bees saying that their brood area is too small.

I would have thought going to double brood would just mean putting a brood box of foundation onto each each one ... and before any rape flowers open. And then I would be inclined to super as and when necessary.

If you want to make increase I think the idea would to be split those colonies which make preparations to swarm. Perhaps take the queen away and create an artificial swarm around her, leaving the queenless part a queen cell or two.

 

[oliver90owner]

I want to be able to increase my number of colonies as simply as possible

Increase by how many? Buy in queens and split your hives into that number would be the simplest!

Thought we started on double brood but now we are increasing as simply as possible? the difference is time and effort, or money and job done.

RAB

 

[Black Comb]

Assuming you have mated queens available and split one of your double brood boxes, how many nucs. from each box?

I'm guessing 2 frames of brood + 1 stores + new queen per nuc., providing started before end of June would in an average year result in a full colony going into winter?

 

[rae]

Watch the temperature. If you have a colony that is starting to expand on a single brood, then you whack on another great big box, if the weather turns cold, they will not be able to keep it all warm. You need to be sure that the winter has really ended before you do this.

We did it last year - colony on a standard Nat brood, we put a 14x12 full of foundation on top, as well as 10 litres of syrup. A week later the entire 14x12 was drawn out, and the centre frames fully laid up. That was a BIG colony 3 weeks later....!

 

[Haughton Honey]

I had the pleasure of having to house a colony headed by one of Norton's queens in THREE National brood boxes last season.......I've never seen so many bees!

 

[Poly Hive]

Work up your bood box until there are 8 or 9 frames of brood, and at the same time as you would add a super then add a brood box preferably with a frame of open brood put up, and a foundation put in it's place in the box below.

If you can do this before the spring flow begins, and or OSR starts, then they will not need fed, other wise then yes they will.

Personally I would put the new box on top as queens naturally want to go up in the world...

Others seem to think they have lead boots but that is not my experience.

PH

 

[picton farm]

THanks i will digest all the helpful remarks and let you all know what a bloody mess I make of it later in the year!