Adding supers early

[Finman]

The simple question was why do we assume a dummy board is better than an empty brood or honey comb for providing an insulating outer edge to a brood nest? .

When dummy board is made from 3 cm polystyrene board and and tightly fitted against walls and inner cover. It is the most easy material to make.

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Which bit of a wild cluster or brood nest being at the foot of the remaining stores but above the emptied combs is wrong? .

If you are going to get average yield 80 kg/hive, do not think what natural hives do. Follow my advices. To keep hives alive and get honey is different thing.

 

[domino]

I've got some supers of ivy in my garden I've over wintered, I was going to put it under hived swarms to give them some food. Is that a good or bad idea?

 

[waverider]

An individual on the local allotments has four hives all with three supers on. Kept the supers on throughout winter!

I have politely asked him why this approach to which he stated that his beekeeping friend (another plot holder) with 50 years experience recommended the method.

The same individual supposedly had a hive that swarmed 7 times last year.


Clueless comes to mind.

 

[AndrewE]

Working backwards, I also get average yields around 80 kg per hive (without any migratory beekeeping , probably because I think what my bees would want in nature.
What we call dummy boards are blank insulated frames, rather than the hive partitions you describe.

I note that there is no answer as how or why empty comb above a colony is so much worse for heat loss than sealed stores (or any actual justification on why early supering is wrong.)

I'm not saying that everyone else is wrong, I'm justifying why I do what I do and noting that apart from abuse there seems to be no real expalnation from anyone else as to why their very forcefully-put advice is the only method worthy of consideration.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Heat rises which in most hives stops at the crownboard which is more or less immediately above the brood (apart from what stores are left over winter).a colony which at this time of year needs all the energy it can get for brood rearing
- you are putting a virtually empty space the same volume as a brood box more or less, on top of the brood - where's the heat going to go?

Of course it doesn't really matter one way or another if you're one of these clowns who leaves a gaping hole in a crownboard propped up by a handful of matches.

 

[masterBK]

I also used to super early as I too believed you should super to give them extra space and not wait til the honey comes in. Many beekeepers do seem to leave it too late and subsequently get swarming problems. It is all about timing and this year in my area it is far too early to super the hives under the current weather conditions. There have been years in recent past when supering in march was indeed appropriate and those that didn't do so had April swarms. Now that I run all my hives on double broods space is not a problem in spring so I don't tend to super until the OSR flow has been running for a week or so. This forum is somewhat overloaded with certain beekeepers and their acolytes obsessed with insulation so I'm aftraid AndrewE can expect to face lots of criticism (not all of it constructive) for his methods. The proof is always in the pudding so if he is getting few swarms and lots of honey he must be doing something right.

Being rude about others does not make them more likely to accept your ideas just more likely to use the ignore button.

 

[Finman]

douple

 

[Finman]

What we call dummy boards are blank insulated frames, rather than the hive partitions you describe..

You may call it what ever. We use same kind of dummy boards in Finland but it does not work as insulated wall what we need to restrict bee room, when colony is small. You are doing warm nest to the colony, not for magpie. I see from google pictures what dummy board is.

With Grand Gad material heat insulation does not work very well. And Grand Dad did not understand very well bee colonies heat economy. It is odd to most beekeepers even today. Like I have read here: polyhives spoil English bee stock. ( imported from NZ)


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I note that there is no answer as how or why empty comb above a colony is so much worse for heat loss than sealed stores (or any actual justification on why early supering is wrong.) .

The question is strange . Open mesh floor under cluster and loft open. It is bad combination in early spring.
.

I'm not saying that everyone else is wrong, I'm justifying why I do what I do .

The Basic feature of a good beekeepers is that he is right. Do not be afraid to be right.
.

 

[pargyle]

It is all about timing ..... There have been years in recent past when supering in march ...... This forum is somewhat overloaded with certain beekeepers and their acolytes obsessed with insulation so I'm aftraid AndrewE can expect to face lots of criticism (not all of it constructive) for his methods.

Yes ... and THINKING about your beekeeping and knowing why you do something is very much the key to keeping healthy, productive and more importantly LIVE bees.

The original post from AndrewE was in the beginners section of the forum and we know that there are a lot of new beeks who will blindly follow advice that is given. Whilst AndrewE appears to know and be able to justify what he is doing - a new beekeeper following his original post, probably in a location somewhere less climatically challenged than Cheshire, slapping two empty supers on their hive at this time of the year, would be presenting a very challenging environment for their bees. It was this that I took issue with - politely.

There are a number of beekeepers on here that do not agree with insulation and I know lots of people in my association that are matchstick wielding, gaping holes in crown boards beekeepers who would never put any insulation on their hive - it's the way they have done it for years. But .... it strikes me that the proof of the pudding is in the number of people who are moving to poly hives and who seem to have better success from adding a bit of insulation to their timber hives - to me it's just a no-brainer.

I don't think there are closed minds on here - I think it's AndrewE that is preaching from an outdated hymn sheet - it MIGHT work for him ... but I wonder if he MIGHT do a bit better if he caught up with a few new ideas ... insulating hives is not particularly new ... it's just been reinvented with modern materials.

 

[Anduril]

I do know of one beekeeper who overwintered one of his colonies with supers on, above the brood box. But that was because he had too many bees to fit back down into the brood area.

 

[pargyle]

I do know of one beekeeper who overwintered one of his colonies with supers on, above the brood box. But that was because he had too many bees to fit back down into the brood area.

Yes ... but what looks like a lot of bees when you see them running about goes into a much smaller space when they start to cluster up ... I would have been tempted to put a clearer board between the super and the brood box to get them all into the brood box .... unless it was a standard National in which case he probably needed brood and a half or even double brood !!

 

[Anduril]

Double brood!

 

[Hawklord]

I found last year that my colony's needed extra space but temps were too low to add an empty super above so went with a 2nd brood box under. That gave me some big colony's when it came to splitting them, I also took a spring crop for the first time. Early in the year most of the nectar gets eaten rather than stored because of the increase of mouths to feed. In my opinion the best place for the stores and fresh nectar is right where the brood rearing is happening.

 

[Finman]

I found last year that my colony's needed extra space but temps were too low to add an empty super above so went with a 2nd brood box under. That gave me some big colony's when it came to splitting them, I also took a spring crop for the first time. Early in the year most of the nectar gets eaten rather than stored because of the increase of mouths to feed. In my opinion the best place for the stores and fresh nectar is right where the brood rearing is happening.

That way it goes normally in my hives too

 

[Dishmop]

Have you ever looked at bees in a wild colony? In some there are years of old sealed honey stretching up the bee-less combs and at this time of year (in fact at any time of year) the cluster is at the bottom of the remaining stores (above the empty comb left behind as they ate their way upwards.) If there is any difference at all I might expect less convection of warm air up between empty cells than up between the smooth faces of sealed stores due to the friction/turbulence resulting from the walls of the open cells.

Exactly correct......
And why do they eat upwards???? because they build downwards, leaving food behind them upstairs for the winter. As they eat upwards they are creating an empty space under them, therefore adding another box underneath makes more sense for creating more space because its natural for them to have a space there, and not suddenly a big void which appears above their food.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Exactly correct......
And why do they eat upwards???? because they build downwards, leaving food behind them upstairs for the winter. As they eat upwards they are creating an empty space under them, therefore adding another box underneath makes more sense for creating more space because its natural for them to have a space there, and not suddenly a big void which appears above their food.

So why do people put supers of honey under the BB for winter? If the honey is stored above in the wild then this makes no sense to then put it under empty brood comb, in effect creating a sandwich with honey being the bread & brood or empty comb the filling?

 

[Anduril]

Hobby beekeepers do it, commercial beekeepers don't. Beekeepers back comes to mind. We all have different methods.

 

[Ely]

Blimey. If it takes 4 pages to figure out 'give 'em a box when they need the room' I can't wait to see the mid season topics!

 

[Finman]

So why do people put supers of honey under the BB for winter? If the honey is stored above in the wild then this makes no sense to then put it under empty brood comb, in effect creating a sandwich with honey being the bread & brood or empty comb the filling?

Beeks have not enough to do with 2 hives. So they must find something to do.
Winter is busy time to do something to hives. No matter what it is.

 

[Dishmop]

Beeks have not enough to do with 2 hives. So they must find something to do.
Winter is busy time to do something to hives. No matter what it is.

There must be an app for it somewhere..........