Adding supers early

[Hawklord]

So why do people put supers of honey under the BB for winter? If the honey is stored above in the wild then this makes no sense to then put it under empty brood comb, in effect creating a sandwich with honey being the bread & brood or empty comb the filling?

The stores are eaten or moved in Autumn when the weather isn't too cold.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So why do people put supers of honey under the BB for winter?

They don't - some put shallows of uncapped/unripe honey under the brood box
after extraction/early autumn (and before feeding) so that the bees move it up above the brood before winter, the cluster would move downwards (but not much as it is contracting as well) to accomodate the stores above leaving empty frames below

 

[Erichalfbee]

So why do people put supers of honey under the BB for winter? If the honey is stored above in the wild then this makes no sense to then put it under empty brood comb, in effect creating a sandwich with honey being the bread & brood or empty comb the filling?

If I have frames of partly capped or uncapped stores after extraction I like to give the unusable honey back to the bees. I could spin it off and feed it back but it is much much simpler to put it in a box under the brood. While it is still warmish and the bees are active they will move this honey up into the brood box where they need it for the winter. I leave the shallow on till the spring, no point in disturbing the bees after autumn treatment, when it will be clean and empty ready to put back on top when it's needed.

 

[Anduril]

If you have ever had the misfortune to have incorrect bee space and the bees draw out 'wild' comb between which collapses under its own weight of nectar and land on the floor of the hive. The bees will remove the nectar and fill the honey arch. I had it happen in a nuc box years ago.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Ah, i didnt realise they would move it all up to the brood box. Mine are 14x12frames which were pretty full & i left a super almost full on top of the BB, if i had put this below what would happen? It was all capped & i dont think there would have been much room for it in the BB. In fact, the super hasnt been touched yet as the BB was so full, should i extract this in spring or just leave them to it? Or keep it to feed next Autumn.

 

[Finman]

Error

 

[Finman]

O

Ah, i didnt realise they would move it all up to the brood box. Mine are 14x12frames which were pretty full & i left a super almost full on top of the BB, if i had put this below what would happen? It was all capped & i dont think there would have been much room for it in the BB. In fact, the super hasnt been touched yet as the BB was so full, should i extract this in spring or just leave them to it? Or keep it to feed next Autumn.

Extract you honey and sell it. It is called beekeeping.

Get honey to super, and then feed it back that bees move capped honey to empty box, that is called "catch and release".

In moving process bees consume 24% out of honey store.

 

[Hawklord]

Ah, i didnt realise they would move it all up to the brood box. Mine are 14x12frames which were pretty full & i left a super almost full on top of the BB, if i had put this below what would happen? It was all capped & i dont think there would have been much room for it in the BB. In fact, the super hasnt been touched yet as the BB was so full, should i extract this in spring or just leave them to it? Or keep it to feed next Autumn.

A brood box that size is big enough to contain enough stores to get through winter.

 

[jonnybeegood]

A brood box that size is big enough to contain enough stores to get through winter.

Yes, i'm discovering that & learnt a lot thats not in books.

 

[Dishmop]

Ah, i didnt realise they would move it all up to the brood box. Mine are 14x12frames which were pretty full & i left a super almost full on top of the BB, if i had put this below what would happen? It was all capped & i dont think there would have been much room for it in the BB. In fact, the super hasnt been touched yet as the BB was so full, should i extract this in spring or just leave them to it? Or keep it to feed next Autumn.

Rather pointless operation taking a super of stores off the top and putting it underneath.

 

[user 6228]

Bees configure their nest in relation to the heat flows and temperature gradients in the nest.
They invest energy in that configuration. The bee keeper changing the temperatures and heatflows by adding / removing boxes can easily destroy that investment of energy.
In other words Only muck about when the bees can afford the losses of energy.

Basically as per Finman and Rab.

 

[Hawklord]

Adding an empty box above is always going to be a drain on the bees energy. Adding the box below won't make a difference regarding heat loss. If the bees don't need to cluster and are covering 6 frames I add the super above, otherwise I put a brood box under. A natural nest would have no empty space above at all.

 

[enrico]

Ah, i didnt realise they would move it all up to the brood box. Mine are 14x12frames which were pretty full & i left a super almost full on top of the BB, if i had put this below what would happen? It was all capped & i dont think there would have been much room for it in the BB. In fact, the super hasnt been touched yet as the BB was so full, should i extract this in spring or just leave them to it? Or keep it to feed next Autumn.

To answer the above, the queen is unlikely to lay in it if it is full of stores but brood in the honey is something you want to try and avoid. I would leave it where it is until you put a QE on if you use them. Making sure of course that HM is not in that box. Then continue as normal, take it off when you want to take your honey off. I take honey off all year as the box,s become full, but others only extract once a year. It also depends on the state of the honey, I am afraid it is likely to be your choice on your gut reaction!
I have been keeping bees for years but I still learn things off this forum......never too old!
Best of luck
E

 

[rolande]

Given that it was, as I said, a few years before I started beekeeping I think I can be forgiven for misunderstanding the 1980's coverage, even if the media reported it correctly. I now think that I probably mis-heard or misunderstood a report saying that beekeepers did not want dyed sugar because of the earlier honey problems.

Good reference here:

...in the 1960s, there was a scheme for de-naturing the sugar with a green dye. And giving us a discount on the sugar. This worked too well: the following summer, a small proportion of the honey in the country turned green and in some cases became quite unsaleable.The trouble was that, in the spring, when brood rearing started to take place, the bees began moving their remaining winter stores up into the supers, when they were put on the hives. then when the honey flow began, the sugar with the persistant green dye in it got mixed with the honey, which also turned green.

Honey by the Ton by Oliver Field

 

[oliver90owner]

To be honest, anyone keeping bees by the calender is talking rubbish. Anyone advocating possibly doubling the effective brood box size (even if the queen does not have access) by adding space above the brood before it is actually needed is misleading the easily duped members of the forum.

There is no nectar flow, currently, that will provide any surplus. Bees are still very reliant on their carbohydrate stores. Starvation, due to extra stores usage, is common if the colony expands too quickly before there is a decent amount of forage. Many might be confused in that loads of pollen is available whenever the bees can fly.

What we don't need is people telling beginners to do this or that, when those inexperienced beeks have not a clue as to the actual strength of their overwintered colonies.

Just like telling an inexperienced one hive owner to mark their queen at this point.

We are just past the first week in March and there are yet three to go. It may well be appropriate to add space before the end of March. Not even looked in any of mine yet and don't intend doing so until the weather improves. Yes, the weather, and not the calender, is the thing I take notice of. I add supers as and when required, not by the date. I don't even start Bailey changes until at least the winter bees have been replaced by new nurse bees.

Common sense beekeeping is what is needed, not some of the rediculous suggestions I note on the newbies farce section. The blind leading the blind or someone blindly leading the new beek 'up the garden path'. Would many open, and leave open, their loft hatch at this time of the year? Then leave the downstairs windows open? I think not.

If you want to give more space for bees (the colony is likely contracting in numbers currently, btw), by all means give that space under the brood nest, where it may be useful and will not detrimentally affect the colony.

 

[Chris B]

If you want to give more space for bees (the colony is likely contracting in numbers currently, btw), by all means give that space under the brood nest, where it may be useful and will not detrimentally affect the colony.

An old trick to "cover all the bases" is to add a queen excluder and super above the crown board. If the bees do really need space they will go through the feed hole, but if they don't they'll stay put underneath. While it's not the right time to add a super at present, things could be very different in a couple of weeks.

 

[Finman]

.
It depends too, how much bees are left after winter. It is better to look inside the hive before you add more space.

And it is important too look, how many frames of food. Take too much off and feed, if food is too few.

 

[Hawklord]

.
It depends too, how much bees are left after winter. It is better to look inside the hive before you add more space.

And it is important too look, how many frames of food. Take too much off and feed, if food is too few.

Mine are covering 8 frames with plenty of stores, but I don't know about the state of the brood or Queens.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

......
4) if there is ivy pollen in the stores the bees will use or move the fructose syrup and throw out the glucose granules, so no real risk to the honey in the box above, then. If you imagine that your winter stores will not end up in the box above, then how do you explain the green honey in supers that resulted from the feeding of dyed subsidised sugar a year or two before I started?

AndrewE - is this a personal observation or have you read it somewhere?
The reason I ask is the last time I did a varroa check (about 3 weeks ago) I found rows of chewed cappings and white crystals on the monitoring board. The crystals didn't smell of any chemicals so, after much trepidation, I tasted a bit and it was sweet so I figured it was sugar crystals.

What I could not work out until I read your post was why the bees would chuck out sugar crystals, not realising they had already taken some energy from these stores. Is it that it would take too much work, water, energy etc. to liquidise these crystallised stored or are they so well provided with stores that they can be profligate with them?

CVB