A/S - Swarmed a week later... what to do ?

[Uncle Betty]

12th - I performed an Artificial Swarm. Queen on original site.

17th - Knocked down cells.

Today - They swarmed.

There are eggs and brood on the one frame that made the AS with, and plenty space to lay in the BB. There are two deep supers, with plenty stores, but five frames of foundation, some being drawn and some not yet being drawn.

Still, they're backfilling the BB.

I have looked over all frames in the BB three times today, and can find no sign of an uncapped queen cell that a virgin would have emerged from.

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So, eventually I've located the queen (2017) in a small cluster outside the hive. For the evening I've put her in a nuc with the frame of brood, some food, and comb.

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What to do ?

There is no brood to do an AS as I understand it. Only the one frame that would stay with the queen in the conventional AS.

Should I

a) Carry out the AS anyway, and give the colony a test frame on it's new site ?

b) Keep her in the nuc and take her to a new spot, and give the colony a test frame ?

If I keep her in the nuc, how do I proceed with that for the next few days ?

It will be in the home apiary preferably.


Thanks in advance...

 

[Beefriendly]

What to do ?

Buy a decent Buckfast queen

 

[Uncle Betty]

Buy a decent Buckfast queen

Ha, good one.

Indeed, you are a Master Baiter.


.

 

[enrico]

I would do what you have already done. Were there any eggs in the frame that the queen had been left in? If not then add a frame with eggs in if you have one, or even better a frame with a queen cell in if the the As makes one. Keep the queen in the nuc as a back up and if they make no queen cells then give her back to the hive when all the brood has emerged. Leave the other half of the AS to do what it should do. See what happens and use the queen if needed later.
That's what I would do
E

 

[Millet]

Buy a decent Buckfast queen

Not a Romanian one though the one i have is worse than the mongrels for building Queen cells more eggs more bees with swarming tenancies, but then again i might have more hives next year not that i had it planned but hell ye..

 

[Uncle Betty]

I would do what you have already done. Were there any eggs in the frame that the queen had been left in? If not then add a frame with eggs in if you have one, or even better a frame with a queen cell in if the the As makes one. Keep the queen in the nuc as a back up and if they make no queen cells then give her back to the hive when all the brood has emerged. Leave the other half of the AS to do what it should do. See what happens and use the queen if needed later.
That's what I would do
E

Hi enrico, thanks.

Yes the queen is in the nuc with a frame having capped brood,larvae and eggs.

The colony has a frame with some eggs in.

 

[Beefriendly]

Not a Romanian one though t

Yes, they have not proved to be the best advertisement for Buckfast queens.
As I maintain always chose your breeder with care....when you can.
My Romanians are a mixed bunch from fine to one aggressive colony to one swarmy colony....although I blame the swarmy one on me not giving them double brood (more room) soon enough. They were so ram packed in there I'd have swarmed.
Couple of supers of honey from each though already... reckon 50lbs+ of honey per hive by middle of May vs £35/queen is money well spent.

 

[Millet]

Yes, they have not proved to be the best advertisement for Buckfast queens.
As I maintain always chose your breeder with care....when you can.
My Romanians are a mixed bunch from fine to one aggressive colony to one swarmy colony....although I blame the swarmy one on me not giving them double brood (more room) soon enough. They were so ram packed in there I'd have swarmed.
Couple of supers of honey from each though already... reckon 50lbs+ of honey per hive by middle of May vs £35/queen is money well spent.

I wont babble on and take this of topic.. .. but the only one of these three that is ram packed is the F1 but still only one super with anything worth taking, it must be the North east coast for sure i must message you or speak to you soon..

 

[enrico]

Hi enrico, thanks.

Yes the queen is in the nuc with a frame having capped brood,larvae and eggs.

The colony has a frame with some eggs in.

Then I would leave them as they are until it becomes apparent what they are up to. Sorry no one else seems to have helped much!
E

 

[Finman]

.
Buy a good Queen and stop to keep mad swarmers. A virgin what you will get, it is like its mother. Same rally next summer again.

Bee Friend is right.
.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Then I would leave them as they are until it becomes apparent what they are up to. Sorry no one else seems to have helped much!
E

Indeed, thank you.

 

[Millet]

After reading through this and trying to work it out, i personally from past experience would be splat any Queen cells and the original Queen and make two Q - Nucs , then add two mated Queens to the nuc's .. i fear i will be doing something exactly the same soon.

Edited to add.. not two but Three new Queens.

 

[oliver90owner]

Read carefully. If they swarmed, there was either another queen present or at least a queen cell. Does that give you a hint?

Not entirely sure which colony swarmed - the original queen or the parent colony. You did not, apparently, complete the A/S. That helps a great deal if there is more than one queen cell in the parent colony!

 

[user 6228]

I used to have this problem of AS not working i.e. the bees with old queen still in swarm fever. So instead of reading the books on AS i read the books on bee behaviour and used my eyes to observe swarms.
The result was the derekm board technique which is nothing more than a complete swarming process but under your control.
A natural swarm does this:

1. Exit the hive
2. congregate nearby in cluster (in our garden usually the apple tree) after 20mins or so the scouts take off ,orientate on the cluster, then go off looking for a new home.
3. Some time later off they go to new home.

Most A/S techniques go straight from 1 to 3 in single step, which doesnt convince all colonies.

In my approach you include step 2 by dumping them on to a sheet that slopes up to a rough wooden board. They walk up to the underside of the board and cluster. After 20 minutes after you see the first scouts orientating on the cluster, you then dump them either in the hive or on a sheet sloping upto the entrance of a hive. This has gone through all 3 natural steps. So far 100% success. The main draw back is it takes space and time.

This was published in Beecraft with pictures last year.


https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=475430&postcount=1

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40138&highlight=derekm+board

 

[Uncle Betty]

Read carefully. If they swarmed, there was either another queen present or at least a queen cell. Does that give you a hint?

Yes, yes, we know that.

My question is not about what has happened, it is about what the best course of action might be.

Not entirely sure which colony swarmed - the original queen or the parent colony. You did not, apparently, complete the A/S. That helps a great deal if there is more than one queen cell in the parent colony!

Original queen. Sorry for the ambiguity, I thought...

... I've located the queen (2017) in a small cluster outside the hive.

... would tell the story.

 

[Uncle Betty]

I used to have this problem of AS not working i.e. the bees with old queen still in swarm fever. So instead of reading the books on AS i read the books on bee behaviour and used my eyes to observe swarms.
The result was the derekm board technique which is nothing more than a complete swarming process but under your control.
A natural swarm does this:

1. Exit the hive
2. congregate nearby in cluster (in our garden usually the apple tree) after 20mins or so the scouts take off ,orientate on the cluster, then go off looking for a new home.
3. Some time later off they go to new home.

Most A/S techniques go straight from 1 to 3 in single step, which doesnt convince all colonies.

In my approach you include step 2 by dumping them on to a sheet that slopes up to a rough wooden board. They walk up to the underside of the board and cluster. After 20 minutes after you see the first scouts orientating on the cluster, you then dump them either in the hive or on a sheet sloping upto the entrance of a hive. This has gone through all 3 natural steps. So far 100% success. The main draw back is it takes space and time.

This was published in Beecraft with pictures last year.


https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=475430&postcount=1

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40138&highlight=derekm+board

Thanks, Derek. Appreciated.

 

[Uncle Betty]

I've found an interesting quote from Adrian Waring, which seems to chime with my own predicament. Maybe.

I've added emphasis...

I have known colonies swarm with no sealed queencells, just eggs in queen cell cups, or eggs and larvae.

Has anyone had similar experiences ?

http://www.bee-craft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Swarm-Prevention-and-Control.pdf


.

 

[Eyeman]

I've found an interesting quote from Adrian Waring, which seems to chime with my own predicament. Maybe.

I've added emphasis...



Has anyone had similar experiences ?

http://www.bee-craft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Swarm-Prevention-and-Control.pdf


.

I worked with a guy who's swarm control centred around knocking down queens cells. On one occasion they headed for the trees 1 day after 'all' QC's were knocked down so there can't have been much floating in a queen cell at that stage. Alternatively he may have missed a capped QC!

 

[Finman]

I worked with a guy who's swarm control centred around knocking down queens cells. On one occasion they headed for the trees 1 day after 'all' QC's were knocked down so there can't have been much floating in a queen cell at that stage. Alternatively he may have missed a capped QC!

That is typical in that " method". Bees succeed to hidden a Queen cell, sooner or later. I did it once upon a time when I did not know nothing else.

Egg case has happened to me couple of times, that when the hive becomes full during heavy nectar flow. Bees make a sudden swarm and only egg will be in cups when they leave. But it has been very rare during decades. No need to worry about that.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've found an interesting quote from Adrian Waring, which seems to chime with my own predicament. Maybe.

I've added emphasis...



Has anyone had similar experiences ?

http://www.bee-craft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Swarm-Prevention-and-Control.pdf


.

Yes that’s what happens if you knock down queen cells. By the time queen cells are made the colony is already well along a complicated pathway to swarming. The queen is slimmed down and the bees have made themselves fat and lethargic with enough stores inside them, with their wax glands primed to start a new colony. Scouts may wel have found a new home. You can’t just switch that off.......click!