A new study

[Dr J.Bell]

I work for a Bio Tech company and have been awarded a grant to look into Bee health.
The grant is not large, however I have been given alot of latitude in how the study is conducted.

Like most Bio Chemist researchers I have done a literature search and database query, standard procedure to see what problems have been reported the most.

It then occurred to me that rarely do we as researchers contact and engage with 'Amateur' Bee keepers. I apologize for using the term Amateur and personally I prefer the term small scale producer.

So I have decided to try and conduct the study by contacting and engaging those of you who are small scale producers, it would be helpful if anyone interested in taking part in the study could let me know.

My main area of interest is Bee health and while I am technically a Bio chemist I am also an entomologist. So from your perspectives what have been the biggest issues in the past 2 years that have affected your hives?

Anyone willing to keep and share hive records with me? While it is against protocol to divulge the company behind our study, I am able to disclose the information privately to those that wish to take part.

My current research involves looking into new treatments for several parasites, while we are at an early phase our results so far have been promising. Please feel free to let me know what you consider the greatest threat to Bees in the Uk at the moment.

J.Bell

 

[Hivemaker.]

please feel free to let me know what you consider the greatest threat to bees in the uk at the moment.

Chronic bee paralyses virus.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Chronic bee paralyses virus.

Have you encountered this yourself?

 

[REDWOOD]

Nosema


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Charlieanne]

The only thing I have experienced so far in my first year beekeeping has been varroa and associated DWV. Despite all haves having the same treatment one seemed to be failing and I'm sure it would have died out without help.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

The only thing I have experienced so far in my first year beekeeping has been varroa and associated DWV. Despite all haves having the same treatment one seemed to be failing and I'm sure it would have died out without help.

If you dont mind me asking which treatment did you use?

 

[B+.]

So from your perspectives what have been the biggest issues in the past 2 years that have affected your hives?

Woodpeckers, wasps, field mice.....oh, and lets not forget the worst problem of all.....beekeepers!

 

[Charlieanne]

PM'd

 

[Dr J.Bell]

PM'd

Thank you that will be useful information.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Please feel free to let me know what you consider the greatest threat to Bees in the Uk at the moment.

Probably beekeepers in the first instance, then in no particular order the viruses from DWV through to CBPV and the two foulbroods, which are feared even though NBU data hints that they're not seen very often.

It would be nice to know more about Nosema ceranae, which seems to be an almost silent killer.

 

[Fusion_power]

An interesting study, and I'm on the wrong side of the pond to have much to say. However, I would like to point out that the chemicals used to control varroa contribute to bee health in ways we still don't fully understand. It would be nice to see some serious research into the long term effects of these treatments.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Chronic bee paralyses virus.

Also a lot more work needed on DWV type B as this could be of real benefit to beekeepers and the fight against varroa. But then your company wouldn't want good results from that as it would mean less medicines needed

 

[Dr J.Bell]

An interesting study, and I'm on the wrong side of the pond to have much to say. However, I would like to point out that the chemicals used to control varroa contribute to bee health in ways we still don't fully understand. It would be nice to see some serious research into the long term effects of these treatments.

A little history.

The company we work for belongs to a much bigger company, the parent company holds patents for some of the treatments available and some for treatments that have not been released.
This was considered a possible conflict of interest, so the new company with an independent board of directors has been set up. Now to open a can of worm's and possibly end a 35 year career!

Lets take a common treatment, to me known as 2-isopropyl-5-methylphenol.
More commonly known as Thymol, some treatments take out the Carvacrol and some dont, or they add extra. Now while it is effective at times against Varroa, there is nothing special about it!

Or to put more accurately, lets say you can kill a cockroach with a B&Q 5oZ hammer, while this may well work there is nothing special about the B&Q hammer! In other words ANY hammer of the same weight and size will do an equal job.

The same is true of Thymol, there are many natural occurring monoterpene phenol's that would do an equal job. In a similar manner there are other natural plant extractions equally capable of killing varroa.

One of the study groups I oversee are looking at a number of naturally occurring essential oils and compounds. One of the trials being conducted is looking at if Bees with access to large areas of commercially grown herbs such as Thyme and oregano, have any statistical advantage in lower varroa counts.

In a similar way extracts from some varieties of mint are being looked at. I appreciate this kind of discussion tends to cause problems on a forum, so all I want to say is I dont have a dog in the fight. I am a scientist and as far as I am concerned if enough experiments tell me black is white then black is white. I am lead by scientific research and results rather than anecdotal information.

Having said that Thymol was first looked at because of a correlation between a number of hives kept near a commercial herb farm and the lower varroa count.

Now one word of caution here, sometimes in science a paper is written and people jump on it, caution should be used as often is the case a later paper will come out offering completely different results.

The main one that springs to mind was a paper titled

"Attraction of the Parasitic Mite Varroa to the Drone Larvae of Honey Bees by Simple Aliphatic esters"

This was seized upon and for a while many many people took this at face value, it is important to wait for studies to be conducted that reproduce results, in the above case a paper later concluded that Aliphatic esters played little if any part in it.

To muddy the waters even more, there is more than one species of Varroa, an as yet unpublished paper also points to inter hybridization between two of the species.

For me personally, some of the work being conducted using natural extractions is the most exciting of all. It's a shame that more small scale keepers would not be prepared to try some of the alternative extractions and report back results. I do understand the reasons behind this, however it should be noted Thymol and its effectiveness was discovered by a Beek and then followed up by a scientific study.

Another example is the use of Oxalic acid, again a mineral Acid and nothing extra special about it, with the obvious exception of safety! The same results can be seen if sufficient strength Acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) is used.
However acetic acid tends to leave a taint on later honey.

At the moment without giving anything away, compounds from Cinnamon are being looked at, some of these show great promise.

An interesting read was a somewhat badly written paper on Nosema and treatments. This work is also being followed up, I have attached a copy, it is poorly done work but the interesting point being some of the results have been reproduced with some of the natural products they tried.


Looks like I get an error when trying to upload files! Is there a post count limit or something that prevents uploading files?

I will post a link to the paper as it should be available as open access.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_using_some_natural_products_and_antibiotics

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Also a lot more work needed on DWV type B as this could be of real benefit to beekeepers and the fight against varroa. But then your company wouldn't want good results from that as it would mean less medicines needed

Far from it, the company I work for are solely interested in finding solutions. As I stated above our parent company does hold patents to treatments, however the company i work for is mainly funded by European grant money.

It may surprise you to learn that many companies who make 'treatments' for Bee disease have also released grant money into research. I think we have reached the point that it isnt in anyone's interest for the entire industry to collapse. The only people lagging behind in the fight to get this under control are some Governments.

It shocks me to see the vast sums spent on...Railways for example , and yet very little money in comparison is made available to research something that has become a serious threat to food production.
You would not believe some of the meetings we have had with politicians, nor would you begin to believe the attitudes and ignorance of some. On the one hand they will stand up on the TV and make a speech on the dangers of loosing our greatest pollinator and the effects on farming, and yet in private you hear stupid comments by them to the effect, well if Bee's die out something else will do the job!!

I kid you not, do not assume those we vote for, are the smartest of people at times. Despite what is said in public, I have serious doubts that many politicians actually believe how serious a threat we are facing to food production.

 

[Finman]

. It would be nice to see some serious research into the long term effects of these treatments.

These recent chemicals have been used over 15 years in Europe: Formic acid, thymol and oxalic acid.

It is very well known how those treatments work. They are used so widely. It is vain to explain to you the things of this big issue, because you do not need that knowledge.

Europen Union Varroa Group reseached and tested the methods during years 1998-2006, and delivered knowledge in internet.

USA and Canada waited 10 years before they accepted the results.

Nothing new in Eastern Frontier since that.




.

 

[Finman]

.
When I came to British beekeeping forum, I teached really much, how to treat mites. It has been hard work to explain during years the thing, even if advices have been in interne since year 2000. Most of all guys wanted to twist it to their own recipe (reengineering).

The more dreaffull thing has been, how to mix water and sugar, and how to feed is to bees for winter.

The meaning of insulation as a saver of winter stores has been gard to explain.

And if you have academic education here, it is the biggest reason to insult and poke the person.

Here is the soil of reality, where to drop the seeds of science.
.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Thymol has been used since around 1916, because it was successful there has been a trend to lean towards......'If it aint broke, dont fix it', what should be kept in mind is other aromatic essential oils may well have the same/better effects than Thymol.

What is difficult is testing natural products on a meaningful scale. Testing isnt just about having 500 hives dotted around the place, you need a good cross section and this would involve alot of input from 'Amateur' Keepers.

I didnt fully understand the comment about feeding sugar and water in winter so if i have misunderstood i apologize, the practice of feeding this was introduced by the same person who discovered the benefits of Thymol back in ~1916.

His take was in long hard winters it was a better course of action due to dehydration from diarrhea. I think the practice continues despite milder winters (UK) because keepers want to keep more of the honey . From a science perspective his assumption of what caused diarrhea was a little flawed.

Without going into a boring history lesson he was the first person to 'mass farm' Bees in the UK, however many of his hives were placed in areas with little access to diverse crops. Nature has a way of balance and it is no coincidence that different nectar are available at different times of the year. Take a sample of wild Bees from a large colonie and test the gut at different times in the year, during winter you will often find 'lighter' honey being consumed despite the presence of spring or early summer honey being available within the hive.

I am not at work today so I cant access the literature, but if your interested you can do a search yourself on the studies of wild Bee colonies. The one i can think of off the top of my head would be Simpson etal 'annual difference of sugar density', I may have the title slightly wrong! But you should be able to get your hands on it.

 

[Finman]

I didnt fully understand the comment about feeding sugar and water in winter so if i have misunderstood i apologize, the practice of feeding this was introduced by the same person who discovered the benefits of Thymol back in ~1916.

.

No one should feed bees in Winter, except Californian beekeepers, who gather this way condensation water. American magic.
I wrote FOR Winter. And it happens in August or in September.

I have read a German book, where they recommend to feed boiled carrot juice in spring. IT was published 1880.

 

[Fusion_power]

These recent chemicals have been used over 15 years in Europe: Formic acid, thymol and oxalic acid. It is very well known how those treatments work. They are used so widely. It is vain to explain to you the things of this big issue, because you do not need that knowledge.

No finman, I don't need that knowledge. I have not treated my bees for varroa since 2004 which is eleven years of the bees using their own means to keep mites under control. Genetic tolerance is the long term solution to varroa problems.

On the other side of the balance, my bees may not have been exposed to many of the viruses spread by varroa and my bees may not have been exposed to some of the known varroa species that infect bees. In other words, they may be highly tolerant to the varroa and viruses in my hives but would fail miserably elsewhere with different conditions. That won't keep me from producing queens and helping other local beekeepers get off the treatment bandwagon.

In other words ANY hammer of the same weight and size will do an equal job.

This is an interesting analogy, and equally interesting precept. Is it your intent to invent a new hammer? or to make an old hammer do new tricks?

 

[Finman]

.
I dp not know what Dr. Bell is gping to fo, but the deep knowledge about 100 y old history does not help.

I do not either believe, that researching as a hobby with hobby beekeepers gives any help in varroa control. It is not that easy.

Universities around the world continue researching varroa. It needs huge amount of money to arrange projects, international meetings and so on.

But only few countrues have beekeeping researchers. But somehow they want to get their own research and they try to hidden earlier researching. It tells to me, that they do not exactly know, what they are doing.

Do nothing and let evolution take care about varroa, to that opinion I give zero value.

Furin Pover, yoj should undes