Winter bees

[Sadders]

What triggers the colony to make these? Temperature or daylight hours?

 

[user 6228]

There has been research into photo-periodism in bees... i.e. is the daylength the trigger... and it has been deternined that the link is weak... so its something else thats the major factor.
Temperature? pollen availability ? these have been postulated but I havent seen the research. May be something to do with height of the sun above the horizon?

 

[Sadders]

There has been research into photo-periodism in bees... i.e. is the daylength the trigger... and it has been deternined that the link is weak... so its something else thats the major factor.
Temperature? pollen availability ? these have been postulated but I havent seen the research. May be something to do with height of the sun above the horizon?

So, from experience, do the bees start winter preparation at the same time every year whatever the weather and forage?

 

[masterBK]

This straight forward question doesn't really have a straight forward answer as there are lots of factors involved and all the facts haven't been sorted out yet by the scientists. It seems to involve brood pheromone, a decrease in the activity and size of the hypopharyngeal glands, pollen collection and consumption, the fat bodies, Vitellogen (a lipoprotein) and juvenile hormone and probably changes in the environment like you suggested. A major factor is the decrease in the amount of brood as the active season comes to a close (queenless and broodless bees are also long lived and very winterbee like in their physiology). So maybe the trigger that controls the decrease in brood production is the answer you require? Perhaps there are some beekeeping scientists that read this forum that will come to the rescue up with an explanation .

Just found this paper
http://www.uncg.edu/mat/bio-math/downloads/Amdam2002.pdf

 

[Finman]

.
derekm said quite well what are the main reasons.

I have seen researches like University writings. The issue has bee researched over 60 years.

- Shortening days
-local or not bee genes which react on local things. Races have variations how. But biggest difference is inside strains.

-pollen short
-nectar short

- Old queen stop laying 2 weelks earlierthan this year queens (here)

-cold nights in small 4 frames nucs or less.


Those bees which do not feed larvae, they over winter in cluster. Other bees die before winter clustering.

-One sign is killing drones 2-3weeks before stopping brooding.

In Spring bees start to rear brood,what ever the weather is.even in out temp -20C they start brood rearing.

They are obliged to stop brood rearing when pollen is finish.Itstartsagain when willows or other plants give enough pollen.

Wintering bees need plenty of good quality pollen to make its fat body for wintering. Bees have extra nutrition in their abdomen too.

If pollen stores in Autumn are poor,for example nosema hits on colony worse than on well pollen feeded.

.

 

[Finman]

So, from experience, do the bees start winter preparation at the same time every year whatever the weather and forage?

No.It does not go so.

But in my country flowering of natural plants have very stable shedule in every year.

Plants read from day lenght what is going on.
They do not bloom again even if weathers are good.
They store wintering and flowering energy to their roots and twigs and so on.
After warm Autumn plants bloom better next year.

 

[user 6228]

I think we need to reset what you can reasonably expect as "a reason".
The fundamental issue is that bee behaviour has been shown to balance more than one factor against another, contrast this with Human reasoning & behaviour that tries to focus in on "one thing the decider". With bees it is likely not to be "one thing" but a weighted balance of a number of things. That concept is difficult to grasp properly because we are human.

 

[sarlyka]

I don't know the answer to the question but I noticed today that bees, butterflies and other flying insects were flying around like crazy. They were flying at my head height, kept brushing past my face.

I wondered if it had anything to do with the approach of winter and the need to gather pollen and nectar whilst it's available.

 

[Finman]

I think we need to reset what you can reasonably expect as "a reason".
The fundamental issue is that bee behaviour has been shown to balance more than one factor against another, contrast this with Human reasoning & behaviour that tries to focus in on "one thing the decider". With bees it is likely not to be "one thing" but a weighted balance of a number of things. That concept is difficult to grasp properly because we are human.

WHAT? Because we are human! Is it better if we were gibbons?

 

[Finman]

I don't know the answer to the question but I noticed today that bees, butterflies and other flying insects were flying around like crazy. They were flying at my head height, kept brushing past my face.

I wondered if it had anything to do with the approach of winter and the need to gather pollen and nectar whilst it's available.

at least 5 beers too much.

You know, first comes Autumn and after that Winter. Not so that next is Winter and then Autumn.

.

 

[richardbees]

Sarlyka

Maybe it's that organic deodorant !

 

[user 6228]

WHAT? Because we are human! Is it better if we were gibbons?

they're primates as well so probably not much of an improvement

 

[drstitson]

winter bees are basically nothing special. they are physiologically nurse bees.

as i see it:

raising brood ages bees. when they are worn out they become foragers. lifespan of bees depends on amount of brood rearing and intensity of foraging.
so in peak season a worker may actually only live for a month (not the magic 6 weeks quoted) vs 4-6 months over winter.

due to various (some obvious) reasons egg laying and brood rearing declines from mid summer peak. this means nurse bees age slower until a point is reached (albeit brief) when they are free of these constraints and survival depends only on stores, warmth, health etc.

 

[REDWOOD]

Mother Nature has the answer

 

[drstitson]

"I wondered if it had anything to do with the approach of winter and the need to gather pollen and nectar whilst it's available."

no - it's just them doing what they should on a sunny day.

 

[drstitson]

"Mother Nature has the answer"

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGlno9aUpw[/ame]

Birds and butterflies
Rivers and mountains she creates
But you'll never know
The next move she'll make
You can try
But it is useless to ask why
Cannot control her
She goes her own way
She rules until the end of time
She gives and she takes
She rules until the end of time
She goes her own way


and no that's not Heidi from the NBKT in the video before anyone asks!!!!

 

[Andy Duff]

It's obvious, the bees have evolved to do what they do and will just get on with it, regardless of any theory we might like to postulate.

 

[Finman]

winter bees are basically nothing special. they are physiologically nurse bees.

as i see it:
.

how blind can see?
You have not read a sin gle document on wintering bees.

It is not much demanded if you put into google "wintering bee physiology"
and read first some newest documents.

New York University guy writes "unique physiological characteristics of long living wintering bees"

.go and read it.

.

 

[Finman]

"Mother Nature has the answer"

You can try
control her but
She goes her own way
she is a lady,
not like Heidi

dritson. Have I asked you to stop drinking on forum?
If not, I ask now

 

[oliver90owner]

winter bees are basically nothing special. they are physiologically nurse bees.

I agree. They are not different than normal workers until they develop - or not - after emergence.

Yes, they become different to 'in-season' workers - or is it that 'in-season' bees develop differently?

Yes, they are different but when they are produced is variable. They will simply be the last batch of workers raised before the bees settle down to cluster and reduce the feed rate to the queen, thus slowing or stopping her egg production.

Thyat means that Dr S is spot on. There may be lots of papers on this and that but it remains that they are no different to any other time of the year up until emergence. When someone can show they are different before that, I would agrre, so I disagree with Finman and this whole thread really.

If the season were to drag out until December, as last year, there ain't any winter bees being produced now. Simple as that.

The fact that the queen's lay-rate has been slowed by the attendant workers will regulate the size of the cluster going into winter - basically a brood cycle and perhaps a bit more.

End of story. Winter bees don't exist until they are needed, and when they are they are already being brooded.

RAB