Will you be trickle feeding Oxalic Acid over the 2010/11 Winter period?

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Will you be trickle feeding Oxalic Acid over the 2010/11 Winter period?

  • Yes

    Votes: 113 57.4%
  • No

    Votes: 59 29.9%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 25 12.7%

  • Total voters
    197
Nope not me a) Despite being told I had high levels, under 500 dropped in 3 treatments.

b) Just not happy with the idea
 
Queens, I don't think that is a low drop. For what it is worth, I would still treat with that level. My highest drop was under 50 mites altogether.
 
Awful load of guff spoken about the negative effects of O.A. The best policy is to treat using 3 1/2% solution .Its a well researched method of controlling mite infestation with no chance of the mites developing resistance to the treatment.Even if you can't see varroa the chance is that it is present so why risk your colonies???.If you check on the internet you can see the huge rate that numbers can build up in untreated colonies leading to viral infections and the demise or destruction of the stock.I value my colonies too highly to leave alone and not to treat.
 
johna,

you can see the huge rate that numbers can build up

You can work out the potential increase in numbers. The rate is fairly constant and not that high - just a range of multiplication by a little under two, to about three, depending on amounts of drone brood - and ignoring hygienic bee behaviour which is increasingly being shown to occur with some colonies/strains.

Colonies with this trait will only multiply if there are sufficient in the gene pool and are encouraged by selection on the part of the beekeeper.

Now we have a multiplication factor we need a time base, to be able to extrapolate worst case scenarios (non hygienic bees and high percentage of drone brood).

That time base is one brood cycle or a little over 3 weeks.

Now you can simply see that the increase in numbers is exponential as opposed to linear. But the rate is still the same.

------------------

Polyanwood,

A total mite drop of 50 is regarded by all the experts throughout the world as well below any threshold limit for treatment, provided the treatment was effective, of course.

I agree any mite could be transferring pathogens from bee to bee, and any pupa with a varroa breeding in the cell will be damaged in some way as well as being a further infection vector (as well as likely adding little or nothing to the colony needs).

However, the mite infestation levels triggering treatment depend on lots of factors as usual. I think 500* is the DEFRA recommendation but it is in the thousands in some areas of the world. These loadings have been translated to natural mite drop, which also has a variable trigger value at different times of the year.

*I have just looked, and a mite loading for danger level (treatment trigger), in my DEFRA document of 2005, is 1000 mites - but may be out of date on some issues and I will need to get an updated version or consult their internet site.

-----------------

Continued monitoring - mite drops, observations, drone brood checking, etc is the key here, IMO. A series of integrated pest management techniques can be a very powerful weapon to keep the mites at a low level. But remember they can double in three weeks, given normal conditions, and by rather more when there is lots of drone brood, when the 'robbing season' is taking the toll of the weakened colonies (particularly those weakened by high varro infestation) and also when the autumn contraction in bee numbers takes place (assume here bees halve in number while the mites stay the same - but things will be worse than that as the mites will still be breeding!

I think the most important time for varroa control is directly before the winter bees are brooded. If these bees are relatively disease free and therefore more healthy, the colony is more likely to get to the springtime when other treatments are possible if necessary.

The continued automatic use of oxalic acid treatment in Dec/Jan may 1) be damaging the queen (who cares if they requeen every year? is the response I hear!), 2) masking those colonies which should be selected for good hygienic traits and 3) perpetuating the continued use of treatments when not needed - we need to get out of the 'antibiotics for everything' syndrome as I, and many others, feel that is certainly not the best way to go in the long run.

Furthermore we should be encouraging the hygienic trait as far more important than 'docile'' or 'prolific' bees as those required traits, along with annual queen changes, is never going to allow the bees to become properly adapted to the mite. We must be consigned to the fact that the mites are here and are not going away - ever.

All in all, IMO those that advocate automatic oxalic treatment fall into one or more ofa few categories - those making a living, but not all of them, (include here those who re-queen each year with inappropriate queens which just give a heavy crop and then the colony succumbs to the climate), those relying on a single chemical dose for the year, those who are too lazy to look after their bees for the greater parts of the colony cycle and a few others maybe. YOU don't want to be included in those groups, as they will never be assisting the bees to make the adjustments obviously required for life with the mite. They are simply honey makers or further disease makers, not responsible beekeepers, IMO.

Selfishness is the word I might use but there are a lot out there that think 'it's nothing to do with me' because they are unable to comprehend more than a little basic knowledge of beekeeping.

I now don the tin hat and await the persistent users to come out of the woodwork (for all the rest to see, I would add).

Regards, RAB
 
The dead mites on the monitoring board don't worry me.
It's the unknown number of ones left upstairs alive & kicking that really worry me!!!!!!!!
So I will be trickling between Xmas & the NY, in addition to my continuing IPM.
 
o90o - what a mental post ! totally disregards one of the main benefits of a winter oxalic treatment ( in my opinion ) which is the very relevant fact that it should wipe out most of the mites picked up from collapsing colonies in the area re-infecting your own bees .
 
What category of beekeeper do you place yourself O90 ?.Perhaps you are making contentious statements just to be offensive ?.
 
mbc,

I did cover it if you read it all carefully - here - and by rather more when there is lots of drone brood, when the 'robbing season' is taking the toll of the weakened colonies (particularly those weakened by high varro infestation) .

johna,

If the cap fits then wear it is my reply to your post.

I regard myself a s a thinking and considerate (to the bees) beekeeper. Where do you fit in?

RAB
 
mbc,

I did cover it if you read it all carefully - here - and by rather more when there is lots of drone brood, when the 'robbing season' is taking the toll of the weakened colonies (particularly those weakened by high varro infestation) .

johna,

If the cap fits then wear it is my reply to your post.

I regard myself a s a thinking and considerate (to the bees) beekeeper. Where do you fit in?

RAB

picking hairs maybe o90o, but re-infection from robbing and re-infection from collapsing colonies are two different things with a markedly different level of varroa population increase in my experience
 
mbc,

You may be right but my thoughts were that usually drifting of badly infested bees to other colonies is a very local affair - like within an apiary would be a very high risk, especially a shared one with all types and ability of beekeeper. I have never said oxalic acid treatment should be stopped. So, yes, that would be one reason for oxalic acid treatment in the depths of winter. There may be other valid reasons.

What I am saying is the treatment of thousands upon thousands of hives with a very light varroa loading (as per the DEFRA publications, and often lower), does not warrant the continued 'dose it anyway syndrome' treatments, like we have had in society where doctors prescribed antbiotics for every ailment that came their way. They have learned from that folly (yes, it worked for a while until the cracks in the policy showed through) and are now generally much more thoughtful as to the correct remedy and do not automatically dive for the antibiotics.

All I am saying beekeepers should think before automatically diving for the remedy year after year even if it is not required. There are other facets which may be affected by those, shall we say 'without thought' reactions.

The main reason for my post is that it is about time some beeks woke up to what they may be doing to the honeybee because they do not think about any alternatives but the one that works now (back to antibiotics in the eighties and nineties). Those that actually think about the rammifications of their actions will eventually change, but there will always be those that simply 'look after themselves'. The varroa mite was imported into Britain by a beek. Resistance to fluvalinates was expected but accelerated by beeks. Those were, in my opinion, people who could not care a jot about the species as long as they were doing OK out of it, or were just ignorant of the warnings on the packets. It goes on all over the place, not just beekeeeping. Big business (yes, Bayer included here), politics, international trade and disposal of dangerous toxic chemicals to third world countries are all examples of greed before ethics. British agriculture is another which cannot avoid the problems brought about by monocrops, pesticides, inorganic fertilisers, larger and larger fields, etc etc etc. All short term 'yield increase at any cost' policies.

There are many out there now who have taken up beekeeping for the benefit of the bees, not for the honey production. Good of them, in fact splendid, but they, too, may not yet have had time to think about these treatments they are told they 'must do' as keeping bees from scratch is not the easiest thing in the world, as many now know.

There must be a better solution. Only those that actually think about it will amenable to changing working practices which may be out-dated, less than satisfactory, or downright folly. By that sentence I am meaning there will be those that will not even consider the facts, let alone change their ways and practices.

It is an obvious short-coming of that system (automatic repetitive treatment) IF the bees are slowly responding, and adapting, to the varroa threat. Queen removal and replacement annually does not help that possibility one jot unless the queens used have that trait, which I doubt that many care to investigate; docility and productivity appear to be the main driving forces for queen traits - the former for the new beekeeper (or urban beekeeper) and the latter for some of the former, who don't know any better, but in the majority would be those who wish to maximise their income from honey production, I would think.

I know that beefarmers are under pressure to produce ever more product from never more hives. Diseases are more prevalent with large concentrations of hives (even if further strict hygiene is adhered to). Simples. Factory farming. We have all heard of the factory chickens, I am sure. Probably not the best way forward for the honey bee species.

All I am doing here is bringing this to the attention of all the readers on the forum. If a minority feel the cap fits them, so be it. In this world you have to make changes; for the better would be good.

Regards, RAB
 
Point taken RAB, but I like the idea of a successfull round of oxalic dribble nocking all the mite levels back to a fairly consistent 'base rate' making observations of mite loads and hense possible hygenic traits and/or natural varroa resitance more meaningfull the following season
 
mbc,

Fair enough, you are honest and sincere in your practices;you have to make a living and can't do it with fewer hives (ie more individual attention), or with lower producing colonies.

I am a hobby beekeeper (at the moment) so can afford to have hives with all differeing statistics. I can analyse them separately, not needing to compare infestations with, say, adjacent colonies or different apiaries as a whole.

I have been noting carefully the colonies which appear to have the fewer mite numbers and breed my new queens from that stock, picking docility and productivity as lesser important traits. I want the (good) queens to last for a second year (or into a third is even better) - well at least that is on my 'want' list.

For those reasons I do not treat with oxalic acid as a routine. I find that the loadings can be reduced by various IPM controls, drone brood removal being one - but I do leave plenty of drones in the colony. I tend to cull later rather than earlier. I don't care if I have to discard worker brood to reduce the loadings - OK, productivity gets a particular hit from that. So what, I do it as a hobby which I enjoy and study carefully.

I think about the different operational regimes and am quietly formulating a plan should I increase my hives substantially. No blind - just buy in more of the same - decisions here. I would want to go into it with my eyes wide open, not clouded with others' biased opinions and be both successful and bee-friendly. I am very much a conservationist.

If there nare only a few who read this thread and change for the better that will mean more thinking beeks which will be better than at present. A lot more would be better still.

If all thought carefully, the plight of the british honey bee might be considerably improved over what it is at this present time - very few feral colonies because of human interference in one way or another. Beeks, farmers, agrochemicals, politicians all have some blame; some more than others.

Right, said my piece. Going to bed. I will sleep soundly tonight.

Regards, RAB
 
I am afraid that I will not be using the trickle method as I have a Varrox evaporator with which I am quite satisfied with its efficacy. My significantly modified method with it allows me to evaporate from below the OMF and it is much less intrusive than trickling too. It's a pity the survey in the thread did not allow for this alternative method of applying oxalic. As for using it as a matter of course - certainly not. Unfortunately I found the post Apiguard drop this year was so astronomically huge I couldn't begin to count them, so I shall be evaporating again about Xmas those hives that retained a significant level of mites (as judged by the continuing drop level). So.....how many other evaporator operatives are there?
 
So.....how many other evaporator operatives are there?

Not so many as there used to be from what i hear, and becoming less,especially in Russia....seems like the oxalic killed many of them.... very much like Frow mixture,which was very efficient in its effect,but the problem was it also tended to kill the bee's as well,followed by the beekeeper if unlucky.
 
So.....how many other evaporator operatives are there?

Not so many as there used to be from what i hear, and becoming less,especially in Russia....seems like the oxalic killed many of them.... very much like Frow mixture,which was very efficient in its effect,but the problem was it also tended to kill the bee's as well,followed by the beekeeper if unlucky.

Too much oxalic crystal probably. Not in the least dangerous to the operative if used sensibly and in any case a whiff is well below the level at which harm to ones lungs takes place, as was identified in another thread 2 - 3 months ago. Can't be bothered to find it but its there somewhere. As for Russia - I really don't care as I'm here - not there.
 
Aye it's a good method for sure,and bugger the Russians.
 
I am afraid that I will not be using the trickle method as I have a Varrox evaporator with which I am quite satisfied with its efficacy. My significantly modified method with it allows me to evaporate from below the OMF and it is much less intrusive than trickling too. It's a pity the survey in the thread did not allow for this alternative method of applying oxalic. As for using it as a matter of course - certainly not. Unfortunately I found the post Apiguard drop this year was so astronomically huge I couldn't begin to count them, so I shall be evaporating again about Xmas those hives that retained a significant level of mites (as judged by the continuing drop level). So.....how many other evaporator operatives are there?

I use an Oxalic Evaporator at Christmas time. I prefer it because it is less intrusive and covers anything and everything within the hive. Used it for the last two years and it works a treat. It doesn't seem to bother the bees at all but you certainly don't want to breath any of that stuff in which is a possible downside.
 
thanks all, well over a 100 votes, I guess at least 1 in 4 people wont be doing OA from this thread results - intesting read cheers
 
I use an Oxalic Evaporator at Christmas time. I prefer it because it is less intrusive and covers anything and everything within the hive. Used it for the last two years and it works a treat. It doesn't seem to bother the bees at all but you certainly don't want to breath any of that stuff in which is a possible downside.

Thanks for being one of the few. If you read my earlier posts, here and in other threads, I have modified my treatment method so that there is even less interference with the bees than with trickling. I managed to scrounge a sheet of metal which I slide in the OMF slot under the OMF and put the Varrox on that to treat the hive. No fiddling with pulling the entrance block out and annoying any guards any more - just stuff the narrow entrance and other spaces for a short while. The Varrox gets pretty hot so 1 mm sheet minimum is OK, 1.5mm better.
 
vaporising safety?

I personally get the feeling that dribbling OA solution is a bit hit and miss. I tried it last year and having to warm the solution for an away site, opening up hives at that time of year, the short shelf-life of the solution,and my wobbly hand dripping the OA a bit erratically (despite buying a practice bottle and having a bash with water on an empty hive) left me feeling that this system was somewhat less than satisfactory. I was on brood and a half at the time and I was unconvinced that I had made a good fist of it.

It seems to me that a vaporiser will get the product deep into the brood box, whereas solution dribbling is mainly down the bee seams. Is there any longer term problem with the oxalic acid fumes leaving a residue on internal hive parts and surfaces when using the varrox vaporiser or a similar battery operated vaporiser?

I am considering using the vaporising method but am still uncertain about the attendant safety issues. I have already discounted the cheaply available heated copper pipe product as a bit hazardous and despite wearing safety gear, I would prefer to keep my distance from the hives while the crystals are being vaporised and subsequently dispersed.

Basically my experience of sod's law is that however straight forward a beekeeping procedure appears from the instructions, it is always a bit trickier on site, out in the weather and I don't want a lung-full of OA fumes or to find that the process makes handling the hive boxes subsequently a hazard in itself. I treated boxes from a Nosema infected colony with acetic acid last year (the treated rags in a plastic bag method) and despite being left in the open air they took months for the acid smell to disperse.
 

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