Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

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This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I remember reading research into AFB resistance, basically if the bees were Resistant (different from Tolerant) to varroa mites they also became resistant to AFB: in other words they needed a high VSH.

VSH is not proven to be the sole, necessary and sufficient tool for resistance. Its one of a suite, and there may well be others we don't know of. Different populations have used different tools, and we should expect bees to cycle them and deploy them in different combinations, and at different levels, as mites find ways round them.

Naturally selecting populations will tend to find ways of managing foul broods quite separately. Natural selection locates and promotes the fittest, regardless of the cause/s of loss of fitness. Diseases, and parasites, tend to remove the less best fitted. In open populations it is critically important to allow that to happen. If you don't you kill them.

See my post #229 above: Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

 

[Beesnaturally]

It can be true here in the UK (and Ireland)... and IF it was true here then it would have a paper published about it... the fact that we do not suggests very strongly that they may not exist.

Close to any area in which honeybees are kept in dominant numbers under modern managed condition, feral/wild bees struggle to adapt to the mite. See already cited paper above and, closer to home,: The Diversity Decline in Wild and Managed Honey Bee Populations Urges for an Integrated Conservation Approach

But there are clearly plenty of places in the UK where that is not the case. Studies have yet to catch up with realities on the ground (as far as I'm aware).

That the only thing slowing/stopping it happening is 'apiary practices' - as is crystal clear from the literature (as detailed at my #229).

We have heard from many experienced beekeepers here who keep untreated, unaided bees. That wouldn't be possible in any place with an overload of 'apiary' bees, and given that it does happen there is absolutely no reason to think their escapees and their drones would not be part of a viable local breeding population.

My bees are 'surrounded' by apiary bees. But they also surrounded by wild/feral bees. Clearly we hold the genetic balance of power.

 

[user 20297]

That's rather the point. If the feral bees then die out from AFB, they would in turn be robbed out, resulting in further spread. The lack of further spread suggests that there are no feral colonies in that location.

When considering bees and location, is it realistic to look at boundaries in such an insular way? The foraging areas of both wild and kept bees overlap almost ad-infinitum.
That one beekeeper experiences total wipeout by a disease that doesn't reoccur, doesn't mean that no wild bees exist in their vicinity.
If anyone wants to prove that true wild bees are rare or non-existent, the evidence they need is by definition, impossible to get.

 

[Beesnaturally]

When considering bees and location, is it realistic to look at boundaries in such an insular way? The foraging areas of both wild and kept bees overlap almost ad-infinitum.
That one beekeeper experiences total wipeout by a disease that doesn't reoccur, doesn't mean that no wild bees exist in their vicinity.
If anyone wants to prove that true wild bees are rare or non-existent, the evidence they need is by definition, impossible to get.

I agree. It is hard to visualise, let alone quantify the effects at any specific location. Its easier just to use your noddle, chat with local people, keep your eyes open, and experiment.

 

[user 20297]

If the best argument that can be found that might undermine an assertion that feral/wild bees are able to to survive is that there aren't actually any wild honeybee colonies, in the tradition of this forum, I need the scientific proof.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Leading on from recent discussion in the Blenheim Bees thread, this is an interesting DNA study of the relatedness of pre-varroa and a naturally selected adapted wild population.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8991
As a starting point we might take the conclusion of the abstract:

[...] "findings suggest that genetically diverse honey bee populations can recover from introduced diseases by evolving rapid tolerance, while maintaining much of the standing genetic variation."

I believe that says something like: 'Our study indicates that mongrel bees are great at adapting, and the resultant stock hold much of the originating diversity.'

We might take that notion to the woodland scenario (I'd prefer an anytown scenario). A likely genetically wide range of bees contribute genes to a mongrel/wild/feral population [1], from which emerges (all being well) an adapted wild population that preserves the (nuclear) diversity of the contributing bees.

Such a population might, under sufficiently isolated [2] conditions, then continue evolving toward a best-fit local strain.

[1] I suggest in the current situaltion we consistently adopt the the terms 'feral' to mean escaped but untested and likely short-lived bees, and 'wild' to refer to an adapted local population. There is of course an in-between country here - something we'll have to address in due course.

[2] There has been talk of mating strain-separation mechanisms. I don't know what the current thinking there is.

 

[user 20297]

I'm becoming very interested in traditional Japanese beekeeping. On a specialist site I note that there is an anecdotal comment that Western honey bees can't establish feral colonies in Japan because of the giant hornet and Varroa. Apparently, they've had Western bees since 1877 and these produce the majority of the honey that comes from Japan. Apis cerana is the bee species that does have mechanisms to deal with Varroa. Has Apis cerana had to live with mites forever and their European bee since 1877?

 

[Beesnaturally]

[...] an anecdotal comment that Western honey bees can't establish feral colonies in Japan because of the giant hornet and Varroa.

I don't know about the giant hornet, but the other is a familar tale

 

[BaconWizard]

I'm becoming very interested in traditional Japanese beekeeping. On a specialist site I note that there is an anecdotal comment that Western honey bees can't establish feral colonies in Japan because of the giant hornet and Varroa. Apparently, they've had Western bees since 1877 and these produce the majority of the honey that comes from Japan. Apis cerana is the bee species that does have mechanisms to deal with Varroa. Has Apis cerana had to live with mites forever and their European bee since 1877?

But if a difference though, between thousands of years of natural selection vs 30 years of human panicked fumbling.

I find the Japanese hives interesting too. I like the continuous comb aspect in particular but I’d hate to try and harvest it in the autumn (in the UK)

I guess the solution might be to leave it till spring?

 

[elainemary]

I'm becoming very interested in traditional Japanese beekeeping. On a specialist site I note that there is an anecdotal comment that Western honey bees can't establish feral colonies in Japan because of the giant hornet and Varroa. Apparently, they've had Western bees since 1877 and these produce the majority of the honey that comes from Japan. Apis cerana is the bee species that does have mechanisms to deal with Varroa. Has Apis cerana had to live with mites forever and their European bee since 1877?

I’m travelling to Japan next year. I’ll look out for hives and honey & take some photos for you.

 

[Beesnaturally]

But if a difference though, between thousands of years of natural selection vs 30 years of human panicked fumbling.

As we have seen from a number of scientific studies here, in the case of varroa natural selection can sort things out within a decade or two.

I guess the solution might be to leave it till spring?

Always, just 'leave it': it being an adapting population.
If you can afford the loss, just leaving individual colonies works in many cases too. It's the very best way to identify the best.

 

[Blunt Spike]

Leading on from recent discussion in the Blenheim Bees thread, this is an interesting DNA study of the relatedness of pre-varroa and a naturally selected adapted wild population.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8991
As a starting point we might take the conclusion of the abstract:

[...] "findings suggest that genetically diverse honey bee populations can recover from introduced diseases by evolving rapid tolerance, while maintaining much of the standing genetic variation."

I believe that says something like: 'Our study indicates that mongrel bees are great at adapting, and the resultant stock hold much of the originating diversity.'

We might take that notion to the woodland scenario (I'd prefer an anytown scenario). A likely genetically wide range of bees contribute genes to a mongrel/wild/feral population [1], from which emerges (all being well) an adapted wild population that preserves the (nuclear) diversity of the contributing bees.

Such a population might, under sufficiently isolated [2] conditions, then continue evolving toward a best-fit local strain.

[1] I suggest in the current situaltion we consistently adopt the the terms 'feral' to mean escaped but untested and likely short-lived bees, and 'wild' to refer to an adapted local population. There is of course an in-between country here - something we'll have to address in due course.

[2] There has been talk of mating strain-separation mechanisms. I don't know what the current thinking there is.

Forgive me for asking silly questions.

If the study suggests that isolated "wild" bees have an ability to rapidly adapt to counter the threat of varroa due to being "wild and isolated" how did they come into contact with varroa? The only way I can see it happening is by being in contact with other bees directly or indirectly through visiting flowers etc where "other" bees have been.

If they are in contact "direct or indirect" with other bees then surely they are (1) not isolated (2) likely to be breeding with drones from multiple neighbouring colonies and therefore spreading / sharing genetics across the area? In such a scenario, why is it only the wild bees that gain the adaptation advantage?

I said it was a silly question.

 

[user 20297]

But if a difference though, between thousands of years of natural selection vs 30 years of human panicked fumbling.

I find the Japanese hives interesting too. I like the continuous comb aspect in particular but I’d hate to try and harvest it in the autumn (in the UK)

I guess the solution might be to leave it till spring?

The situation in Japan is different than it is with us given that there are at least two completely different species of bees being kept over a fairly wide area. They are understandably proud of their native bee and I think that a bit of hyperbole and wishful thinking about its superiority in comparison with the imported bee in being able to live anaided in the wild rings some bells with me.

The Japanese boxes are tiny and obviously are much easier to handle than any Western designs and it's less of a change to the hive ecosystem when removed one or two at a time.. They seem to harvest throughout the season whenever there is a top-box full of honey and empty of brood (a tricky call). They crush and press the comb to get the honey and this is possibly a bit less of a palaver in terms of equipment than our own extraction processes. Having said that they accept that the honey haul is smaller than with Western honey bees and management regimes.

 

[user 20297]

I’m travelling to Japan next year. I’ll look out for hives and honey & take some photos for you.

Lucky you...a good choice of destination. It would be good to read the impressions of a UK beekeeper having seen this type of beekeeping at first hand.

 

[user 20297]

Forgive me for asking silly questions.

If the study suggests that isolated "wild" bees have an ability to rapidly adapt to counter the threat of varroa due to being "wild and isolated" how did they come into contact with varroa? The only way I can see it happening is by being in contact with other bees directly or indirectly through visiting flowers etc where "other" bees have been.

If they are in contact "direct or indirect" with other bees then surely they are (1) not isolated (2) likely to be breeding with drones from multiple neighbouring colonies and therefore spreading / sharing genetics across the area? In such a scenario, why is it only the wild bees that gain the adaptation advantage?

I said it was a silly question.

I'm certain that @Beesnaturally will give you plenty of explanation. I think your assessment of the situation is correct. But when unmanaged bees start to suffer either directly or indirectly because of Varroa, if they survive, luck apart, this will be because of some inherent advantage in their behaviour or metabolism. If managed bees survive in a similar situation it is quite likely that any such inherent features will be masked or propped up by chemicals or management methods. One such method may involve replacing the queen and therefore removing a potentially successful genetic line.

 

[Blunt Spike]

I'm certain that @Beesnaturally will give you plenty of explanation. I think your assessment of the situation is correct. But when unmanaged bees start to suffer either directly or indirectly because of Varroa, if they survive, luck apart, this will be because of some inherent advantage in their behaviour or metabolism. If managed bees survive in a similar situation it is quite likely that any such inherent features will be masked or propped up by chemicals or management methods. One such method may involve replacing the queen and therefore removing a potentially successful genetic line.

Thank you, so its about being able to say that colonies genetics are countering the varroa rather than chemicals, which potentially is easier to show with wild untreated bees.

So, here's another silly question. How do they know its the genetics and not the location of the colony? Do the studies look at the type of tree that the bees made their home in? Maybe certain moulds growing on or in the tree or tree saps have the same effect on the mites as the treatments?

I think the greater immediate threat to our bees in the UK is waiting to pounce from across the Channel, and no im not talking about desperate people. Surely its the Asian hornets that are wiping out entire apiaries in the EU. I can live with having to manage varroa (at least until these studies identify the best solution,) but, I dread the day when I turn up to see my bees and discover the scene that Richard Noel filmed / posted on Twitter last week.

 

[user 20297]

Thank you, so its about being able to say that colonies genetics are countering the varroa rather than chemicals, which potentially is easier to show with wild untreated bees.

So, here's another silly question. How do they know its the genetics and not the location of the colony? Do the studies look at the type of tree that the bees made their home in? Maybe certain moulds growing on or in the tree or tree saps have the same effect on the mites as the treatments?

I think the greater immediate threat to our bees in the UK is waiting to pounce from across the Channel, and no im not talking about desperate people. Surely its the Asian hornets that are wiping out entire apiaries in the EU. I can live with having to manage varroa (at least until these studies identify the best solution,) but, I dread the day when I turn up to see my bees and discover the scene that Richard Noel filmed / posted on Twitter last week.

That's seems a very good point you made about the possible positive effects of the choice of nest tree and the naturally produced chemicals that may be affecting Varroa or be behaviour; I haven't seen any reference to a study of that subject.

The instant threat of those hornets must be worrying in regions where they are endemic. Being in the North of Scotland, maybe I can put that worry aside, but it may trump varroa if it gets established in England.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Thank you, so its about being able to say that colonies genetics are countering the varroa rather than chemicals, which potentially is easier to show with wild untreated bees.

I think the underlying reasoning is:

1) Given that all bees will come into contact with varroa (in the same way that all people globally have come into contact with Covid)

2) The only explanation for wild bees surviving and thriving long term is that they have developed resistance.

Next:

3) As post-varroa wild populations have been found virtually all over the world,

And

4) As this is precisely what would be expected to happen under natural selection (Darwinism)...

5) We can be sure that is what is happening.

Further: there are now any number of studies that corroborate and confirm this interpretion.

We know, scientifically, both by reference to theory and empirically, that the reason for tolerant/resistant wild bees is genetic. We even know about probably most of the mechanisms by which they manage this; all the way from DNA particulars to the different abilities and behaviours that confer resistance.

So, here's another silly question. How do they know its the genetics and not the location of the colony? Do the studies look at the type of tree that the bees made their home in? Maybe certain moulds growing on or in the tree or tree saps have the same effect on the mites as the treatments?

In the early days it is believed that small cavities forcing regular swarming played a part.

It could be that certain plants also play a part. Propolis is definately thought to be helpful, so in that sense it is the case.

I think the greater immediate threat to our bees in the UK is waiting to pounce from across the Channel, and no im not talking about desperate people. Surely its the Asian hornets that are wiping out entire apiaries in the EU. I can live with having to manage varroa (at least until these studies identify the best solution,) but, I dread the day when I turn up to see my bees and discover the scene that Richard Noel filmed / posted on Twitter last week.

If.... if there are places and populations where natural selection for behaviours that limit Asian hornets can play out, then there is a good chance of that happening.

That raises an interesting and illustrative point doesn't it?

 

[Blunt Spike]

I think the underlying reasoning is:

1) Given that all bees will come into contact with varroa (in the same way that all people globally have come into contact with Covid)

2) The only explanation for wild bees surviving and thriving long term is that they have developed resistance.

Next:

3) As post-varroa wild populations have been found virtually all over the world,

And

4) As this is precisely what would be expected to happen under natural selection (Darwinism)...

5) We can be sure that is what is happening.

Further: there are now any number of studies that corroborate and confirm this interpretion.

We know, scientifically, both by reference to theory and empirically, that the reason for tolerant/resistant wild bees is genetic. We even know about probably most of the mechanisms by which they manage this; all the way from DNA particulars to the different abilities and behaviours that confer resistance.

In the early days it is believed that small cavities forcing regular swarming played a part.

It could be that certain plants also play a part. Propolis is definately thought to be helpful, so in that sense it is the case.

If.... if there are places and populations where natural selection for behaviours that limit Asian hornets can play out, then there is a good chance of that happening.

That raises an interesting and illustrative point doesn't it?

I do think its interesting hence my questions.

Is there any evidence with regards to natural selection and the time scales for said genetic advantages to kick in. Does the fact that wild colonies in the UK must breed with captive bred drones mean that any changes are reduced, reversed or enhanced?

The USA has seen (or believed by some to be) genetic modifications in Crotalus Atrox - Western diamond rattle snakes, where some are now born without a rattle. Some say they are more successful because they don't give their location away to humans ergo they survive whilst their cousins with rattles are located and killed, others say its a coincidence.

Genetic changes or advantages have to start somewhere, but 20 / 30 years could be a little quick, certainly without ruling out other external influences like the location / habitat, naturally occurring chemicals and even the amount and type of forage to support strong colonies.

What would be a genetic advantage for a bee vs a varroa mite? A thicker exoskeleton thus preventing the mite being able to puncture it? Or more towards (if it is now a thing) morphic resonance influencing bee behaviour? Do some bees pick the mites off each other?

How does frequent swarming help? If the bees swarm with mites on them the original colony will still have mites and so will the new one or is it solely the frequent brood break where the advantage comes from?

Does the short life span of insects cut down the time frame needed for genetic modifications? I believe fruit flies are used in labs for that very reason. Does human interference change the timescales? Varroa wouldn't have been here in the UK at all (yet at least) if it were not for humans.

Are these studies peer reviewed? If so what did the reviews find?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I do understand that I'm not really allowed to say this thing, so I'm going to say it just once then retreat.

Once a disease (or parasite) is established, any vaccination within an open population will, like mite treatments:

* Become permanantly addictive

* Undermine the wild population that our ecologies depend upon to make seed.

Vaccination is appropriate in closed (breeding) populations, like mammalian livestock _only_

The veterinary approach to open breeding animals sharing genes across a wild population is simply slaughter.

If you want to take me up on this please do so on my blog.