Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

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This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[user 20297]

"Most beekeepers don't want to put chemical miticides (pesticides / insecticides) on their colonies. "

Isn't that just a commonsense statement?

 

[Wilco]

Going back to the topic of discussion and hopefully less erroneous than my last post here...

@Beesnaturally from reading through I think a major part of the contention here comes down to a couple of major themes:

1. Demonstrable repeatability: most claims made of resistance to varroa fall apart when thoroughly scrutinised or tried elsewhere. Your local adaptation hypothesis is relatively hard and risky to test, regardless of whether true or false. If people are going to risk tbeir bees they want data showing it works and works in many different situations rather than just a stranger, or strangers, on the internet saying it worked for them. This is not so much mechanism as much as demonstration that it does work. As such, if you want to convince people you need data. I think it's fair for people to shoot down hypotheses of how such resistance works as well as the claims that it does occur through your approach if they are poorly evidenced. I'd be happy to try and work with you to find a way to try and collect, analyse and present data from your hives in a more traditionally scientific format if you'd like- if analysis of data doesn't back up your claims it won't help you convince people but if it does then it might at least mean these arguments becomes slightly less circular.
2. Is it genetics or husbandry/environment. Whilst there is usually some interplay between these, your claims seem to be that it's mostly genetic. @pargyle has bees from various lines which have been low varroa from the outset and when bees with heavy varroa are brought in, their levels drop. This suggests that, for his husbandry system, it is the environment/husbandry which is the primary factor for their survival rather than naturally developing resistance genetically. One alternative explanation is that many types of bees have resistance genes/capability but the way the majority of keepers keep them counteracts that and something(s) @pargyle is doing doesn't, but this still comes down to husbandry/environment as the thing we need to look at more than genetics.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Going back to the topic of discussion and hopefully less erroneous than my last post here...

@Beesnaturally from reading through I think a major part of the contention here comes down to a couple of major themes:

1. Demonstrable repeatability: most claims made of resistance to varroa fall apart when thoroughly scrutinised or tried elsewhere. Your local adaptation hypothesis is relatively hard and risky to test, regardless of whether true or false.

Most claims or all?

Lets get down to hard data, and supply hard evidence, before moving on.

Myself and others have posted proper studies that evidence resistance by natural selection, and in many there are statements to the effect that it is to be expected. Populations adapt to pressures.

If you feel you can fault either those studies, or the science that anticipates the co-evolution of bee and mite, _with proper evidence_ we can examine your case _only then_ moving on to the thoughts that you premise on your statement.

I expect you must know that if we go looking we will find several tens of such studies to add to those already posted.

We cannot proceed on the basis of claims made that defy the scientific evidence that has already been presented. I hope you can agree with that.

Of course, many claims are made by amateurs, of all grades. We must set them aside. That of course includes me, so there is no point in asking me for data. Its inadmissable for the purpose of this stage.

BTW its not my hypothesis. Its Charles Darwin's.

 

[Do224]

As said previously, there are loads of wild bees around if you look.

I agree there probably are, but despite all my looking I’ve never actually found a wild nest. Any tips for finding them?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree there probably are, but despite all my looking I’ve never actually found a wild nest. Any tips for finding them?

Learn to bee-line

 

[Newbeeneil]

Learn to bee-line

You will probably find your local beeks!

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Salbany? Has he published his DNA results yet or does it take two years to get them?

"Most beekeepers don't want to put chemical miticides (pesticides / insecticides) on their colonies. "

Where is your evidence for this claim? No doubt you have the results of an opinion poll to share with us.

No opinion poll -sorry. I help run a beekeeping club and we teach how to look for varroa resistant traits in colonies, but also how and when to apply chemical miticide treatments (for exam training purposes). Given a choice, there's not much demand for the latter. We also present to other beekeeping clubs around the country; on the face of it, growing interest.

No additional knowledge on when genetic testing will be available for the Blenheim Estate bees; we'll go way off topic on that! For those who are interested, Filipe has found more cavity based nests than the original 50 reported. The characteristics of them are not what was expected from Tom Seeley's work.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You will probably find your local beeks!

Indeed but it depends where you start. Maybe in a forest somewhere?
I suppose you could just get out and search. That’s how I’ve found them.

 

[Swarm]

If you have access to woodland, there's no better way of spending your time.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you have access to woodland, there's no better way of spending your time.

Maybe.

 

[Wilco]

Most claims or all?

Lets get down to hard data, and supply hard evidence, before moving on.

Myself and others have posted proper studies that evidence resistance by natural selection, and in many there are statements to the effect that it is to be expected. Populations adapt to pressures.

If you feel you can fault either those studies, or the science that anticipates the co-evolution of bee and mite, _with proper evidence_ we can examine your case _only then_ moving on to the thoughts that you premise on your statement.

I expect you must know that if we go looking we will find several tens of such studies to add to those already posted.

We cannot proceed on the basis of claims made that defy the scientific evidence that has already been presented. I hope you can agree with that.

Of course, many claims are made by amateurs, of all grades. We must set them aside. That of course includes me, so there is no point in asking me for data. Its inadmissable for the purpose of this stage.

BTW its not my hypothesis. Its Charles Darwin's.

So that's a no, you don't want to put forward any data to investigate your claim (i.e. Hypothesis) that your bees have co-evolved with the local varroa population, which has become less fecund as a result, and that's why they survive/thrive as treatment free bees?

Science is about investigating and testing claims. One of the reasons I offered to help is that whilst you may consider yourself an amateur when it comes to science, I am not.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I agree there probably are, but despite all my looking I’ve never actually found a wild nest. Any tips for finding them?

Put a request or ads in local parish magazines, offer a reward pot of honey for information leading to an arrest! Most wild colonies are in houses. Redouble efforts during swarm season. In my experience towns are most productive. If you say a little something about why you want local bees people get interested, and more info comes to you.

Also contact pest controllers for swarms (they often give them away already collected), and, if you are interested. You'll find bees, and many will come with a story attached.

Unless you live near woods with lots of large old trees you won't get many from tree cavities - at least that's my experience. Churches are always worth a good look over and a bait hive - speak with churchwardens.

Try to collect locally (say 2 miles radius). That way what you learn will tell you something about the state of the local population - and you really need an adapted local population on your side.

 

[Beesnaturally]

So that's a no, you don't want to put forward any data to investigate...

Actually it was a suggestion made in good faith to try to settle a perennial issue.

As stated I have already put forward the only data that can be used - scientific data in papers with links.

If I give you non-scientific data you'll tell me its unscientific and thus valueless.

... your claim (i.e. Hypothesis) that your bees have co-evolved with the local varroa population, which has become less fecund as a result, and that's why they survive/thrive as treatment free bees?

We can't work with my bees. I don't have data (as you know) I'm not a scientist (as you know).

We can read of the different ways bees are known to have co-evolved (I put up a paper on that topic about a week ago).

I don't think I've ever spoken of 'a local varroa population' although I think one could. I did put it forward as a possible reason for Pargyle's experience with imported varroa-laden bees that subsequently thrived sans treatments, but I was thinking about his adjacent colonies.

It is currently thought I believe that uncapping rather than a co-evolutionary mechanism is mostly in play (Steve at Westerham).

Science is about investigating and testing claims. One of the reasons I offered to help is that whilst you may consider yourself an amateur when it comes to science, I am not.

Science is about being a scientist: but we can read their studies.

I'm not a scientist. You are? Are you an entomologist specialising in honeybees and with close exposure to the bee-mite literature?

 

[Apiarist]

Myself and others have posted proper studies that evidence resistance by natural selection, and in many there are statements to the effect that it is to be expected. Populations adapt to pressures.

If you feel you can fault either those studies, or the science that anticipates the co-evolution of bee and mite, _with proper evidence_ we can examine your case _only then_ moving on to the thoughts that you premise on your statement.

Ok then, I accept your invitation to discuss these studies:

You have posted a Link to this Study,

https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/...egion=eu-west-1&originCreation=20221013172712
which I understand is one of the studies you are referring to when you say "Myself and others have posted proper studies that evidence resistance by natural selection".

In this study there is an excellent Table 2. of the "evidence", in it, it references the Honey Bees on the Brazilian island, Fernando de Noronha, where the honey bees are surviving WITHOUT treatment, (two studies, covering 15 years! I understand that this state of non-treatment has been the case for up to 40 colonies and over 30 years!).

My QUESTION for clarification to understand your terminology (because I think there is some misunderstandings over the definitions of words); are you saying that these bees on Fernando de Noronha have therefore 'achieved resistance through natural selection', to paraphrase your opening comment?

And for the traits that we should be looking for, or those that assist the bees in resisting the mites, do you consider Grooming/Mite Biting the be part of the mix?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Ok then, I accept your invitation to discuss these studies:

You have posted a Link to this Study,

https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/...egion=eu-west-1&originCreation=20221013172712
which I understand is one of the studies you are referring to when you say "Myself and others have posted proper studies that evidence resistance by natural selection".

In this study there is an excellent Table 2. of the "evidence", in it, it references the Honey Bees on the Brazilian island, Fernando de Noronha, where the honey bees are surviving WITHOUT treatment, (two studies, covering 15 years! I understand that this state of non-treatment has been the case for up to 40 colonies and over 30 years!).

My QUESTION for clarification to understand your terminology (because I think there is some misunderstandings over the definitions of words); are you saying that these bees on Fernando de Noronha have therefore 'achieved resistance through natural selection', to paraphrase your opening comment?

And for the traits that we should be looking for, or those that assist the bees in resisting the mites, do you consider Grooming/Mite Biting the be part of the mix?

Sorry Apiarist, you burned your chances when you were so rude I had to ask you not to post on my blog. That request remains in force.

Further, I am having a discussion with Wilco. I don't want to try to have a discussion with two or more hostile people at once.

 

[Wilco]

Actually it was a suggestion made in good faith to try to settle a perennial issue.

As stated I have already put forward the only data that can be used - scientific data in papers with links.

If I give you non-scientific data you'll tell me its unscientific and thus valueless.


We can't work with my bees. I don't have data (as you know) I'm not a scientist (as you know).

We can read of the different ways bees are known to have co-evolved (I put up a paper on that topic about a week ago).

I don't think I've ever spoken of 'a local varroa population' although I think one could. I did put it forward as a possible reason for Pargyle's experience with imported varroa-laden bees that subsequently thrived sans treatments, but I was thinking about his adjacent colonies.

It is currently thought I believe that uncapping rather than a co-evolutionary mechanism is mostly in play (Steve at Westerham).


Science is about being a scientist: but we can read their studies.

I'm not a scientist. You are? Are you an entomologist specialising in honeybees and with close exposure to the bee-mite literature?

You've made specific claims about your bees regarding natural selection and varroa but nothing beyond your word, which is anecdote. I'm a scientist. I can help you with what data to collect and how. I can help you with how to analyse it and write it up scientifically and, should we find anything noteworthy, try to get it published. That's what I offered, I thought clearly.

 

[Beesnaturally]

You've made specific claims about your bees regarding natural selection and varroa but nothing beyond your word, which is anecdote. I'm a scientist. I can help you with what data to collect and how. I can help you with how to analyse it and write it up scientifically and, should we find anything noteworthy, try to get it published. That's what I offered, I thought clearly.

Its very kind of you, but the data I want (in no particular order) is:

1) did a reasonable proportion come through winter fit and ready to go?
2) did a reasonable proportion give me plenty of honey (all being considered)?
3) Are a reasonable number giving me honey year-on-year?

This data (which is in my head and the number of buckets in my cupboard/sales from my spreadsheet)
yields:
4) Which ones are gonna be mums this year?

And that's all I need to know.

Data analysis last year supplied:

1) Pretty good, but please see to the damn mice guards next September
2) My back hurts! (but then it was a very sunny summer)
3) Yes, a good proportion are high, and I've already had 2 or 3 lifts from some
4) That one and that one.

I don't care how they do it. I care that they do it.

So that's one side. The other side is asking myself the question: "Do you belief the science when it says adaptation will occur/has occurred/here is why?

The answer to that is: yes I do. I'm not a scientist: but I have perfectly sufficient understanding of natural selection for the fittest strains (and a great faith in science).

And,

I don't have a better (any) answer to the question: 'why are my untreated hives thriving?' except: that fundamental, foundational science is applicable and right.

Also: if I did what you suggest and performed some home-made science how long would it take for somebody to accuse me of doing it wrongly, or making up my results?

 

[Apiarist]

Sorry Apiarist, you burned your chances when you were so rude I had to ask you not to post on my blog.

I wasn't rude, I am asking you politely, what you mean by "resistance" and do these bees qualify, and is Grooming/Biting part of the mix?
Also you invited us here to partake in a discussion on the Studies you have posted links to... which is what I did, why don't you want to discuss what you posted?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I wasn't rude, I am asking you politely, what you mean by "resistance" and do these bees qualify, and is Grooming/Biting part of the mix?
Also you invited us here to partake in a discussion on the Studies you have posted links to... which is what I did, why don't you want to discuss what you posted?

I also uninvited you when it became clear that rational discussion was not possible.

You remain uninvited.

 

[user 20297]

Things happen:

Myxomatosis in rabbits; a virus intentionally transferred to a naive host.

"The long-term failure of this strategy (of permanently eradicating wild rabbit populations) has been due to natural selective pressures on both the rabbit and virus populations, which resulted in the emergence of myxomatosis-resistant animals and attenuated virus variants. The process is regarded as a classical example of host–pathogen coevolution following cross-species transmission of a pathogen" (Wikipedia)

Can any scientist explain to me why it is impossible for that to occur between the varroa mite and the Western honeybee?