Which Type of Bees

[Excession]

Grab a local swarm, or a colony from your association.
Whatever you get will end up being bred out by local bees anyway, so start local to avoid surprises.
Once you have half a dozen colonies you might notice a difference between them, just keep the best daughters and requeen the worst.
It will be great fun and better than constantly mail ordering queens.

 

[MJB]

This is really great Reading - Thank you all for the comments.

 

[Little John]

You have to realise that whatever type of bee you end up with, their queen will live about two years and their descendants will be the product of the local bees (whatever they are) so after about 3 years your original bloodline will be diluted and you end up with mongrels.

If you buy a Carnie queen (you'd expect me to say that ...) direct from Slovenia, then when she arrives you can take some daughters off her and re-queen the entire apiary. By keeping the original queen in a nuc-sized colony, she should live for at least 3 years ... but let's be conservative and say 2.

Towards the end of those 2 years, you take even more daughters off her, and again re-queen the entire apiary. Those F1 queens - still with pure-bred characteristics - should be good for another 2 years.

So that's 4 years (possibly more) and goodness knows how many daughter-queens - all with pure-bred characteristics - you've had for (say) £30. Not such a bad deal.

You could then buy another Carnie queen direct from Slovenia, and repeat the cycle. £30 every 4 (or maybe even 5) years, to keep the blood-line pure.

In practice, I'm finding that F2's retain good characteristics - one strain I have is on F3, and still looking good. I also have a Buckfast-Carnie cross on F6, and no serious problems. They're a tad heavy on propolis use, but that's hardly a reason to mark them down.

I've nothing against well-behaved mongrels - much depends on how much time you have to weed-out those "which staple your socks to your ankles". When you're pushing 70, there may not be enough time left to start from scratch, and so importing a guaranteed-docile bee becomes a favourite strategy - at least it was for me.
'best
LJ

 

[Little John]

I presume you mean EIRE when you say South.......

Context. I was talking with a guy who lives in Dublin.

Does not BIBBA encourage members to breed their own bees from the best of the native bees available to beekeepers in their region?

In practice it appears to be a 'closed shop'. Some years ago I emailed one of their contact addresses in the hope of acquiring an AMM queen. The only reply I got was an invitation to send them some money to join their incestuous organisation. But no guarantee of acquiring a bee. But I didn't want to become 'a member' - I just wanted to buy a bloody bee.

It appears that there are plenty of quality AMM queens to be had in Ireland (the Republic of), but you try buying one from there - from here. Next to impossible.

If the breeders of AMM - regardless of where they're based - don't make it easy for interested beekeepers to purchase those queens, then they only have themselves to blame for the continued trend to import queens from abroad. I gave AMM a shot, and was badly stung. There will be no second chance. Tough.

And my story cannot be unique. "AMM breeders, get your act together - that is, if you want to be serious players."
LJ

 

[B+.]

And my story cannot be unique.
LJ

Not even close...

I was once a member but got fed up with all the talk and no action. I even did a morphometry course with them...you could have cut the air with a knife when I said I bred A.m.c. (A.m.m just weren't available at any price)! So much for being open to all bee breeders! Anyway...time moved on and I joined the Dutch BeeBreed Group. I've learned far more there than I ever did in this country.

 

[For want of a better word]

Context. I was talking with a guy who lives in Dublin.



In practice it appears to be a 'closed shop'. Some years ago I emailed one of their contact addresses in the hope of acquiring an AMM queen. The only reply I got was an invitation to send them some money to join their incestuous organisation. But no guarantee of acquiring a bee. But I didn't want to become 'a member' - I just wanted to buy a bloody bee.

It appears that there are plenty of quality AMM queens to be had in Ireland (the Republic of), but you try buying one from there - from here. Next to impossible.

If the breeders of AMM - regardless of where they're based - don't make it easy for interested beekeepers to purchase those queens, then they only have themselves to blame for the continued trend to import queens from abroad. I gave AMM a shot, and was badly stung. There will be no second chance. Tough.

And my story cannot be unique. "AMM breeders, get your act together - that is, if you want to be serious players."
LJ

Sorry to here of your problems with obtaining a colony of Amm bees Mr Little John.
I have found the Irish Amm breeders ( Ulster and republic) to be very welcoming and helpful, and had the good fortune to renew many of those wonderful acquaintances at last years BIBBA conference in Douglas Isle of Man.
I am sure if you were to join one of your more local groups that you would find the majority more interested in the bees than fleecing you of your hard earned cash!

Good luck... would be such a shame for you to miss out on keeping some delightfully beekeeper friendly bees.

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

Not even close...

I was once a member but got fed up with all the talk and no action. I even did a morphometry course with them...you could have cut the air with a knife when I said I bred A.m.c.! So much for being open to all bee breeders! Anyway...time moved on and I joined the Dutch BeeBreed Group. I've learned far more there than I ever did in this country.

I have experienced just the similar scenario when I turned up at the Norton Motorcycle Owners club on my new Honda!

Fortunately times change..... nobody worries that much when I say I also breed a long standing line of quality New Zealand Italian bees... but then I do have a black belt in Origami!

So you lot...stop stirring up all this sillyness PLEASE!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

So you lot...stop stirring up all this sillyness PLEASE!

Its not sillyness. Here we have a group that calls itself "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association" but, really, they're only interested in you if you adopt their paradigm. The exclusive nature of the organisation doesn't encourage people like me to continue being a member. Thats why I left

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Great Reading...Thanks thus far.....

Buckfast bees will outperform other strains and sub species of honey bee. AMC is an excellent sub species but have an unfortunate tendency to swarm....so difficult for a beginner. I have kept AMM and would not now give them apiary space. Buckfast and AMC when crossed with AMM and allowed to stabilise produce quite a vigorous bee, black in colour (see also The Border Bees by Colin Wightman).
This is the bee of choice for some AMM breeders in Southern Ireland. AMM wil scarcely fill one national brood chamber, to get one nuc. two full hives are necessary. Not surprisingly, bee breeding on a relatively large scale there, is the preserve of the few.

 

[mbc]

Its not sillyness. Here we have a group that calls itself "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association" but, really, they're only interested in you if you adopt their paradigm. The exclusive nature of the organisation doesn't encourage people like me to continue being a member. Thats why I left

Their "paradigm" is to breed bees which will breed true for successive generations with local drones, hardly exclusive unless you're set on a course which requires continuing imports or ii.

 

[pargyle]

Grab a local swarm, or a colony from your association.
Whatever you get will end up being bred out by local bees anyway, so start local to avoid surprises.
Once you have half a dozen colonies you might notice a difference between them, just keep the best daughters and requeen the worst.
It will be great fun and better than constantly mail ordering queens.

This is the best advice for a beginner - a local swarm is an experience - they become 'Your' bees and they will be what you make them. Rather than coughing up £200+ for a nuc or a colony - which might not be what you expect - go local. Put out your new hives in April with a bit of old comb and some swarm attractant and you might be pleasantly surprised at what you get. Watching a swarm build into a hive is fascinating - swarms tend to be fairly manageable and you can get used to handling them. They will survive most of what you do to them and god forbid that you do lose them - you're not looking at losing all that money !

There's lots of rubbish talked about various strains of bees ... if you really want to refine your bees in due course - once you have a couple of colonies a new queen from a reputable breeder for £30 or £40 will transform your colony in a few weeks into your chosen strain. But ... in the early stages you might be overthinking your beekeeping - try and keep it simple, it doesn't have to be complicated.

 

[B+.]

Their "paradigm" is to breed bees which will breed true for successive generations with local drones, hardly exclusive unless you're set on a course which requires continuing imports or ii.

The same would be true of A.m.c. (or ligustica, etc) in an area where they were the only population in residence.

 

[Poly Hive]

There is in the latest Scottish Beekeeper a reprint of a piece Bernard Mobus wrote some 30 years ago and it is valid now as then regarding greener over the fence.

If John Durkas is on here please get in touch.

PH

 

[BeeJuice]

.
Buy several bees and compare

.

I agree entirely. The problem is though, three Buckfast Queens can turn into colonies of very different temperaments. It is difficult to know which is typical of the breed.

Same with dogs... Labradors have a particular temperament. So do Spaniels. But you met my Spaniel having never met one before you would have a very wrong idea of what the breed is generally like.

Take whatever Bees you get offered.

 

[pargyle]

There is in the latest Scottish Beekeeper a reprint of a piece Bernard Mobus wrote some 30 years ago and it is valid now as then regarding greener over the fence.

PH

Well ... that's not a lot of use to those of us who are not Scottish Beekeepers ..... I for one would be very interested to hear what Bernard Mobus said 30 years ago ... a great beekeeper !

 

[MJB]

If you buy a Carnie queen (you'd expect me to say that ...) direct from Slovenia, then when she arrives you can take some daughters off her and re-queen the entire apiary. By keeping the original queen in a nuc-sized colony, she should live for at least 3 years ... but let's be conservative and say 2.

Towards the end of those 2 years, you take even more daughters off her, and again re-queen the entire apiary. Those F1 queens - still with pure-bred characteristics - should be good for another 2 years.

So that's 4 years (possibly more) and goodness knows how many daughter-queens - all with pure-bred characteristics - you've had for (say) £30. Not such a bad deal.

You could then buy another Carnie queen direct from Slovenia, and repeat the cycle. £30 every 4 (or maybe even 5) years, to keep the blood-line pure.

In practice, I'm finding that F2's retain good characteristics - one strain I have is on F3, and still looking good. I also have a Buckfast-Carnie cross on F6, and no serious problems. They're a tad heavy on propolis use, but that's hardly a reason to mark them down.

I've nothing against well-behaved mongrels - much depends on how much time you have to weed-out those "which staple your socks to your ankles". When you're pushing 70, there may not be enough time left to start from scratch, and so importing a guaranteed-docile bee becomes a favourite strategy - at least it was for me.
'best
LJ

Very Interesting. Ive not got as far as Daughters yet so I need to read up on that part but i suspect you are looking for Queen cells which you take off?

Ill need to get a swarm 1st and then look to reQueen if this is the route i follow.. I suppose it won't matter what the swarm is because you the breeding (if that the right term) produces similar little bees of similar characteristics.

 

[MJB]

Well ... that's not a lot of use to those of us who are not Scottish Beekeepers ..... I for one would be very interested to hear what Bernard Mobus said 30 years ago ... a great beekeeper !

Can you Pdf the article? sounds like an interesting read

 

[MJB]

I agree entirely. The problem is though, three Buckfast Queens can turn into colonies of very different temperaments. It is difficult to know which is typical of the breed.

Same with dogs... Labradors have a particular temperament. So do Spaniels. But you met my Spaniel having never met one before you would have a very wrong idea of what the breed is generally like.

Take whatever Bees you get offered.

Ahh yes, Now I know a bit about Spaniels as I've got a cracking Cocker From Argyll warrior/Dan Druid Lines thats mated with another FTCH so ill take that knowledge and apply it to my Bees

 

[pargyle]

Can you Pdf the article? sounds like an interesting read

I agree .... perhaps PH can oblige !

 

[MJB]

This is the best advice for a beginner - a local swarm is an experience - they become 'Your' bees and they will be what you make them. Rather than coughing up £200+ for a nuc or a colony - which might not be what you expect - go local. Put out your new hives in April with a bit of old comb and some swarm attractant and you might be pleasantly surprised at what you get. Watching a swarm build into a hive is fascinating - swarms tend to be fairly manageable and you can get used to handling them. They will survive most of what you do to them and god forbid that you do lose them - you're not looking at losing all that money !

There's lots of rubbish talked about various strains of bees ... if you really want to refine your bees in due course - once you have a couple of colonies a new queen from a reputable breeder for £30 or £40 will transform your colony in a few weeks into your chosen strain. But ... in the early stages you might be overthinking your beekeeping - try and keep it simple, it doesn't have to be complicated.

Yup, I've been worried about the cost and then the possibility that it all flies away! Im leaning towards going to hold out for a swarm, set my Hives up and try to attract, if thats not working the local team I'm sure will help me out as they are helpful so far. And then as you say i can explore the reQueen if needed.

Ive really enjoyed reading this thread - lot to learn!