Where to get Ceder

[oliver90owner]

wide enough

I am sure with modern-day water-proof glues one can easily either 'tongue and groove' or 'grooves and insert' (or just 'edge glue', even) for wider panels. End joint selection and comprehensive fixings during construction should easily avoid any joint separation later in service.

I would go with 'stopped' grooving and a tongue insert and bother only with the outside joint being perfect with the board perfectly flat. Fill inside (or the bees will) if necessary. It is much easier if you can start with slightly over-size and thickness to finish, but my feeling is that you do not have a wide planer-thicknesser?

If I were to be inexperienced in this sort of construction, I would make perhaps a couple in cheaper materials first, to find those 'little problem areas' and iron those out before embarking on full scale production of hives (with enough supers and spare broods for swarm control, nucs, etc.). Remember, these hive boxes need to be square in 3 dimensions - square and flat (for stackability). Nucs not quite so important.

I have only knocked up a couple of Dartingtons recently (and several softwood ekes to alter my National standards to 14 x 12). It is a long time since I have worked with full-size planer-thicknessers, spindle moulders jointers, rip and radial saws, etc. With just a 'smallish' radial saw, planer-thicknesser, router and other hand power tools, it is much harder, or time consuming (to get everything spot on and reproducible every time), than working in a proper joinery workshop. Horses for courses, I s'pose. I don't want to try to put you off doing your own thing, so go for it. You may have excellent facilities, but from your posts, I am thinking you are an enthusiastic beginner? Both with bees and with the carpentry.

Lastly, I would go for 14 x 12 rather than double standard brood or a bood and a half - my preference after trying the others first - but I do feel a little spoiled by having the couple of Dartingtons available for big broods. I can understand you may be thinking of selling standard nucs or taking them for your other new hives, but going from one single National to double broods is a serious step up in size and management. And with only running the one National at the moment, you may be well advised to expand a little more slowly. I would want a second colony, at least, available to help control the big colony - and two queens are always better than just the one, IMO. That may, or may not, affect your plans - you may be planning on buying in extra queens for your other hives, or even nucs.

Regards, RAB

 

[Peebels]

As you say, I am very new to both beekeeping and woodworking, however I have a lot of support of the construction side of things. My farther-in-law is very good and experienced in making things out of wood and has a lot of kit to back him up so he will be taking the lead on that side of things. I just wanted to get a few things right in my head first, when it comes to construction ill be holding, sawing and gluing mostly (under close observation no doubt).

I do intend to get some more queens next year, I wanted to get one to replace the one I have (I have found them a little ‘pingy’ and don’t really know anything about the queen at all) and start a second colony. I read somewhere on here that I should attempt to double each year and that seamed like logical advise. For this reason I intended to make two additional hives, one for use and one spare.

With regard to the double broods, I have been told the queens I would like to purchase would need more space than the single national brood. The gent who supplied the current bees also said he intended to double brood them next year. So do you think it would be worth making them into deep brood boxes instead? I didn’t want to more away from the nationals, as most of the stuff I have is set up for nationals.

Thanks

 

[adri]

Just a note of caution on other materials...if you pick up a 14x12 in cedar and then pick one up that's been made out of red deal you'll notice a *big* difference. I've just made up an order and it included a 14x12 brood. HEAVY!

Cheers

Nick

 

[Hivemaker.]

Peebels....if you use 14x12 brood box's you won't be moving away from nationals,just deeper frames in the brood box,everything else is the same.

 

[oliver90owner]

As HM, and if you make an eke, to try the size, you can always remove it and revert to standard brood(s) if it is not your cup of tea. Just a few jumbo frames and some foundation to suck it and see (and they are easily shortened back to fit a standard brood).

Easy to re-house - just pop the frames into the big brood box with the new frames, with foundation, nearer to the entrance. Suitable size cardboard box(es) under the short frames to stop them building under the frames instead of on the new foundation is a useful ploy. There are 'frame extenders' for converting standard frames to jumbo, but I, for one, would not use those (they could be used, if you just wanted to try the format, but I like the uninterrupted laying pattern of the larger comb - and, they weren't available when I swapped format!).

With the larger foundation I have found it more reliable to have the frames 'warm way' and let them draw against a dummy or the hive wall to get the frames drawn more uniformly (and completely).

Might be a good time to consider top bee space as well. I prefer that too, but I would, of course, as the Dartingtons are top bee space.

Regards, RAB

 

[Peebels]

I have to admit, your making a very convincing argument for deep brood boxes, it was somthing i had previously considered but did't know too much about it to be honest. I'm sure it would be easyier to manipulate rather than hefting too boxes. But as adri points out, ill have to make sure i use ceder if thats the case. Ill show your advice on tonge and groove to the wood worker, im sure it will make alot more sense to him!

Im still very unsure about the bottom/top bee space argument and the benfits of either, ill have to have a look into this some more I feel.

Now, if i can just get my greesy mits on some ceder!

Peebs

 

[BKF Admin]

I run a few 14 x 12 ply boxes,they are large and heavy but as they are run as a single box you dont need to lift them very often,only to clean/change the floor a couple of times a season.

In my opinion its much better to run a single 14 x 12 than 2 nat brood boxes.
Double broods are a real pain and take twice as long to inspect every week.

 

[oliver90owner]

Adri may have pointed out that ply boxes are heavier than cedar, but I can assure you they are both very heavy when moving bees in them - full of frames, brood, food and bees plus a floor and cover will make that difference much less as a percentage of the total weight.

I consider temporarily splitting the brood into two Dartington carry-boxes/nucs if the terrain is at all difficult. It is really a two-man job moving bees around, but I have always done it on my own....perhaps I should go polystyrene... or perhaps use the hydraulic crane on the lorry and lift the whole hive, supers and all, at one go.

Regards, RAB

 

[BKF Admin]

Oliver can you explain more about your Dartington travel boxes?

 

[oliver90owner]

Admin,

They are really just a lightweight nuc box without a lid and no entrance. They will acommodate 6 Hoffman 14 x 12 frames (just) and with a coverboard or lid can be used as required. Mine can have either OMFs or a solid floor - just a few screws to change them over but I doubt they will ever have the solid floors fitted again.

I made thick insulated roofs and have fitted adjustable toggle fasteners to be able to clamp on a Dartington 1/2 super (honey box) as required - the side walls are in 9mm and the honeybox side walls are only 6mm so the clamps maintain a good stable fit.

They are somewhat heavier than their original design (as simple store boxes for frames), but with expanded polystyrene overcoats, they are quite capable of overwintering a nuc - if you could call five 14 x 12 frames of bees plus super frames of stores a nuc! A bit like a cheap polyhive with wooden protective liner (for the lower density polystyrene).

The 'jablite' sheets are cut as a good fit and are retained by battens on one box and simply with ratchet straps and some corner reinforcers (to spread the load) on another. The other pair are not yet fitted out as they won't be needed for anything other than frame stores this winter.

I was not going to make a further pair when I knocked up my second hive but changed my mind as they are decidedly useful and all the bits were to hand anyway. The second pair will have part solid and part open mesh floors which will be easily removed (or probably hinged back to one side).

I used one for uniting a late nuc with a weak(ish) colony recently. Full box of bees and a couple spare frames of stores, of sorts, was the result. Better than lugging a full size brood box around, and also much lighter than my original National standard nuc box in cedar + softwood eke.

So in a sentence - a lightweight carry/storage box with other uses around the apiary.

Regards, RAB

 

[paul]

I got some from the address below, cut to size, thicknessed and planed. Very helpful staff

Robert Price Timber & Roofing
The Wood Yard
Forest Road
Taffs Well
Cardiff
CF15 7YE

* Tel: 02920 811681
* Fax: 02920 813605

Opening Hours

Monday - Friday
8.00am - 1.00pm
1.30pm - 4.30 pm
1.30pm - 5.00pm
Saturday / Sunday - Closed

 

[VEG]

Paul what price was it?

 

[paul]

Hi Veg,

I paid about £100 enough for brood box, roof, solid and open mesh floor and three supers.

Cheers Paul.


Bye the way are you local? I'm living in Treforest.

 

[VEG]

From Maesteg

 

[rourkie]

red cedar

hi I have found a wood yard that will supply red cedar at a very good price it is in log form at the moment but they will cut it to size.I will have to finish it. how long do i need to leave it to dry, or does any one have diy ideas for kiln drying? they are charging the same as they would for swawn soft wood, so the price is good. regards jim

 

[Hivemaker.]

Some info in this thread..........

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=456

 

[Black Comb]

Rorkie

If you don't mind I would like a small amount so if it's OK can you send me some details as I may be able to collect.

Thanks
Peter

 

[RoofTops]

Rourkie, you can dry wood using a dehumidifier. Alternatively just leave it to dry naturally but the rule of thumb is one inch per year so be prepared for a wait if doing it this way, but this is the easiest and cheapest way and you will end up with wood which is stable outside.

For the dehumidifying you will need to build an enclosure, polythene sheet round a frame would be fine. Stack the wood so there are gaps between the planks, ideally using using strips of wood of the same type to avoid "stick marks". I would then bind it all up with a strapping gadget and plastic strapping to reduce the movement of the wood until it has all dried. You can paint the end grains as well so the planks dry more evenly.

You can get purpose made dehumdifiers for wood drying but a domestic one will work as well although there may be a risk of acids in the wood causing damage but if you are only doing it occasionally you should be OK.

Monitoring the moisture content is best done with a gadget with two prongs which measures the electrical conductivity, but you could have a few test pieces of sawn plank in the enclosure and just keep weighing them if you have accurate scales. A moisture content of about 10% should be about right I think. Depending how thick the timber is you should have it dry in a few weeks. The drying rate can be as high as 1% per day.

I would then still leave the wood outside under cover for a weeks to reduce the chance of the wood moving after being worked.

 

[Hivemaker.]

One inch per year air drying is for hardwood,softwood is 3 months per inch,but because of the extra high moisture content of green cedar 4 months is needed,depending on the time of year,humidity,will only ever dry down to the emc of the atmosphere.


Test using the oven method.

Remove sample from centre of stack. Cut off a member 300 mm long. Cut off a small cube sample approx. 25 mm long. Weigh and record. Place in a warm oven (experience must judge - dangers of over heating is obvious) for 15 to twenty minutes or so and re-weigh and record. Continue until there are no discernible differences between readings. You will now have a wet weight and a dry weight. The %MC is obtained by the formulae –
Wet weight – dry weight / dry weight X 100 = %MC (this is a standard scientific formulae for determining wood %MC - not mine !)

A moisture meter is very handy but not quite so accurate as the oven method. Why not test your sample using the oven method and then see how much you can trust your meter?

 

[MJBee]

Belated thanks Hivemaker,
The advice you gave in post 36 was spot on, the cedar dried beautifully and has now been converted into 12 National supers.
Mike