What is your experience of supercedure?

[mbc]

Old queens from swarms are often superceded - maybe the queen exhausts herself having to establish a brood nest all over again

 

[Busybee123]

Normally, in the bees I keep at the moment, I only see supercedure in queens 3 or more years old and it happens towards the end of the year. The older queens (if I don't remove them to a small nuc) haven't been around the next year.

I had an italian queen once whose colony seemed to love having more than one queen around and they were that way all year. Even if I removed the daughter queen/s, they'd replace her and carry on.

Thanks for sharing your experience Crg,

Supercedure of elderly queens late in the season is the sort of "classic" supercedure described by Ted Hooper and others. However I have read on this forum and elsewhere of early supercedure of newly (presumably poorly) mated queens as well, and this is perhaps more becoming more common.

The behaviour of your Italian queen colony is truely strange! You won't find that in the books!

Thanks again - very interesting.

 

[Hivemaker.]

However I have read on this forum and elsewhere of early supercedure of newly (presumably poorly) mated queens as well, and this is perhaps more becoming more common.

As is nosema ceranae a cause for early supercedure,becomming more common and not many checking for it.

 

[Busybee123]

here are two supersedure cells. one is of a young queen that was not mated properly and is starting to become a drone layer and the other is an old queen the is starting to fail in her third year.
i was checking hives last week and came across two newly hatched queen cells in one hive and the old girl was still in the hive. i did not bother looking for the new queen , but made a note of the hive and will look for her in the spring

Thanks Keith for truely excellent photos. I note both photos show only one queen cell, but in one case the cell is in the middle of the brood, but in the other it is just under the arch of stores. I wonder if that is significant?

I also note that from your more recent experience there can be more than one supercedure cell - just to prove that there arn't any hard and fast rules. I wonder if you were aware they were there before they hatched and decided to leave them?

 

[Busybee123]

Old queens from swarms are often superceded - maybe the queen exhausts herself having to establish a brood nest all over again

Thanks mbc. Good point - I'd not looked at it like that. Presumably she is superceded in the same year, a few months after swarming.

 

[Busybee123]

As is nosema ceranae a cause for early supercedure,becomming more common and not many checking for it.

Thanks Hivemaker. Is Nosema Ceranae widespread in the UK?

From the little I know about it I think I'm right in saying that it is more virulent, but less common than Nosema Apis. But I suppose any pest or disease that affects the queen will probably be a factor in bringing on supercedure.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Very widespread,it is in all parts of europe,uk,Ireland,and getting much more common than apis,plus it persists all through the summer as well.

 

[Busybee123]

Very widespread,it is in all parts of europe,uk,Ireland,and getting much more common than apis.

Thanks Hivemaker. I did not know that! It's hard to get up to date disease info especially for Northern Ireland. There are some disease maps published but they only cover England and Wales I think.

 

[Busybee123]

Thanks to all who have replied so far. I have found your experiences very interesting and I hope others have too. I have tried where possible to make meaninful comments, but I'm no expert and it is your experiences that count - hopefully I (and other newbees) can learn from them.

I hope more people post details of their supercedure experiences and I look forward to reading them.

Cheers,

Tom

 

[Hivemaker.]

Of course if you damage the queen, or she gets damaged in some way by the bees, this will often lead to supercedure as well,ie break a leg off,damage an antenae,ect Front leg seems to be worse than back leg.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Another reason for bees trying to supercede is on introducing new queens to colonys before they have been laying for at least three weeks.
Same can also apply to a queen mated from her own colony in the first 3 weeks after mating.

 

[BKF Admin]

Same can also apply to a queen mated from her own colony in the first 3 weeks after mating.

This is somethng I have had in my own hives a few times when hiving a swarm with a virgin queen,she lays up half a frame and then they make queen cells.

 

[kazmcc]

We had a strange case of the bees superceding. We went into winter last year with a marked queen, laying well. We came out of winter with no sign of her but something still laying quite well. I was a bit concerned with the amount of drone brood she was laying all around the edges of the frames, but she was laying adequate amounts of worker and our mentor just told us to wait and see. The bees must have been just as unhappy about her too as they built and charged many QCs. It was only after a frame was taken and a new queen mated that they have stopped. We never saw that queen, she must have mated before we opened in spring as she was laying by then. It was a cold winter too.

Is this an odd case? I don't know, it was my first winter!

 

[keith pierce]

Thanks Keith for truely excellent photos. I note both photos show only one queen cell, but in one case the cell is in the middle of the brood, but in the other it is just under the arch of stores. I wonder if that is significant?

I also note that from your more recent experience there can be more than one supercedure cell - just to prove that there arn't any hard and fast rules. I wonder if you were aware they were there before they hatched and decided to leave them?

In the second photo, the queen cell on the right hatched first and tore down the queen cell on the left to kill her rival. the worker bees then started the tear down the queen cell that the new queen hatched in, and then should totally get rid of any trace of queen cells

 

[RoseCottage]

Just a comment...

I started a poll sometime ago to try and capture the frequency of supercesure. The idea being to see whether queens are living only a short time. Of the 41 people who have so far responded it seems that about 80% have had supersedure take place in years 1 and 2. Very few report it taking place after this time.

There may be all sorts of reasons - different types of beekeeping environment, swarm control challenges, types of bee, etc but it still makes an interesting set of results.

I would urge anyone who hasn't yet completed the poll to take two minutes and do so as it will hopefully improve its accuracy.

All the best,
Sam

 

[drstitson]

kaz - from the sound of it your original queen was towards the end of her productive life. okay overwinter but starting to fire blanks (hence the increased drone brood early) and thus superceded. although you didnt see her in spring that isn't uncommon. i don't think you've been through 2 rounds.

BTW when was your last FULL inspection in autumn 2010?

 

[oliver90owner]

I look at supercedure this way. If you have a queen that becomes too old, worn out, damaged, reduced laying capacity, firing duds (drone eggs), etc and would be unable to effectively swarm out of the hive (particularly a mated queen that has already swarmed once) what would the natural alternative be? That's right - supercedure. The other alternative would be the demise of the colony. As simple as that.

The facts are that beekepers do not run their colonies/queens on those lines (well, not so many), so 'old queen' supercedure is avoided by requeening earlier. Those that do run their colonies like that probably wouldn't notice supercedure occuring anyway! Especially if it occurs when fewer inspections are the order of the day.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

well said rab.

supercedure is the controlled handing over of the reigns. new queen produced and proven before old 'un removed. so long as the bees spot the need well before queen firing blanks only.

no different to you deciding to raise some queen cells from that stock for requeening but without the hassle of mating nucs and introduction. ok - downside - no chance for increase.

 

[Busybee123]

In the second photo, the queen cell on the right hatched first and tore down the queen cell on the left to kill her rival. the worker bees then started the tear down the queen cell that the new queen hatched in, and then should totally get rid of any trace of queen cells

Keith - I didn't notice that the there had been two queen cells side by side on the second photo. That explains why the side of the cell on the left if torn out. Thanks - your photos really are worth 1000+ words!

 

[Busybee123]

Of course if you damage the queen, or she gets damaged in some way by the bees, this will often lead to supercedure as well,ie break a leg off,damage an antenae,ect Front leg seems to be worse than back leg.

Another reason for bees trying to supercede is on introducing new queens to colonys before they have been laying for at least three weeks.
Same can also apply to a queen mated from her own colony in the first 3 weeks after mating.

Thanks Hivemaker. I accidentally damaged the queen in one of my colonies earlier in the week when I marked her - she lost a front leg. I'm really annoyed with myself, but I didn't mean to do it and now I'll have to deal with the consequences. I am hoping that the bees will supercede her.

However, the reason I decided to mark her in the first place was that I was not sure what was going on in that colony and I wanted to be able to find her quickly. Previously I had found one queen cup with an egg in, then a few days later the cup had been drawn out a bit with a bit of Royal Jelly in the bottom but no grub.

In my very limited experience I could not decide if they were going to supercede, swarm, or if the queen just got carried away laying (she is VERY prolific).

Anyway that's my experience for what it's worth! I'll be looking at them today and hopefully it will be a bit clearer what is going on.