What caused my colonies to fail?

[Boston Bees]

I’ve no idea what number of mites to expect to see on the board...above what number would be considered indication of a varroa problem?

It's a very difficult question, as it depends on how many bees there are left in the hive, whether there is currently brood, etc. If you are down to your last few hundred bees, there won't be many varroa either.

But see how you go

 

[Do224]

The varroa problem was there in august and september, so therefore there are a varroa problem at present, low mite drop or high mite drop don't matter that much any longer

Are we definitely sure this is varroa related then? I thought the mite drop after vaping would confirm it one way or the other...

Surely if there was a varroa problem in Aug/Sept, there would likely still be a varroa problem now wouldn’t there....or is that not how it works?

 

[Do224]

It's a very difficult question, as it depends on how many bees there are left in the hive, whether there is currently brood, etc. If you are down to your last few hundred bees, there won't be many varroa either.

But see how you go

Ah ok, I see what you mean. Thanks.

I don’t know if this gives an idea of the colony size or not but this was the inspection board about a week ago (it had been cleaned maybe 6 days prior to the photo being taken). Is that typical or is the area of debris smaller than it should be (they’re on brood and a half).

The bees were pretty vocal when I vaped them today...certainly sounded like there was plenty in there by the hum/buz

 

[Boston Bees]

Ah ok, I see what you mean. Thanks.

I don’t know if this gives an idea of the colony size or not but this was the inspection board about a week ago (it had been cleaned maybe 6 days prior to the photo being taken). Is that typical or is the area of debris smaller than it should be (they’re on brood and a half).

The bees were pretty vocal when I vaped them today...certainly sounded like there was plenty in there by the hum/buz

View attachment 29991

That area does look distinctly on the small side ..... but I mainly use nucs in winter so I am not an expert in what inspection boards should look like in January

Certainly some varroa there, though for 6 days drop, not a huge amount

 

[Sanntos]

Are we definitely sure this is varroa related then? I thought the mite drop after vaping would confirm it one way or the other...

Surely if there was a varroa problem in Aug/Sept, there would likely still be a varroa problem now wouldn’t there....or is that not how it works?

These generations are produced during early autumn, and if they are done so during high mite load distress it can not be repaired later, in relation to winter survival. It is what it is. (Here I sound like a famous beekeeper from a neighbor country) So a good survival during winter is dependent on early varroa treatment, not treatment during December.

 

[Do224]

These generations are produced during early autumn, and if they are done so during high mite load distress it can not be repaired later, in relation to winter survival. It is what it is. (Here I sound like a famous beekeeper from a neighbor country) So a good survival during winter is dependent on early varroa treatment, not treatment during December.

So individual bees definitely can’t recover from varroa attack, once the mite is gone?

Surely it’s still beneficial for me to treat now though, right...

 

[Erichalfbee]

So individual bees definitely can’t recover from varroa attack, once the mite is gone?

Surely it’s still beneficial for me to treat now though, right...

It depends how badly they are compromised.
This is an excellent talk on what varroa does to bees, worth watching all the way through
Varroa feed on bees’ fat bodies

 

[mbc]

So individual bees definitely can’t recover from varroa attack, once the mite is gone?

Surely it’s still beneficial for me to treat now though, right...

Absolutely, the thing is is that it's not the varroa per se that cause the problem but rather the virus they vector.
Damage is done by now, all the treatment does now is ensure a relatively clean start to the season if they survive, its beneficial but not as beneficial as an autumn treatment which gives them a bit of a free run to raise winter bees without a crippling virus load and therefore a better chance of survival.

 

[pargyle]

Ah ok, I see what you mean. Thanks.

I don’t know if this gives an idea of the colony size or not but this was the inspection board about a week ago (it had been cleaned maybe 6 days prior to the photo being taken). Is that typical or is the area of debris smaller than it should be (they’re on brood and a half).

The bees were pretty vocal when I vaped them today...certainly sounded like there was plenty in there by the hum/buz

View attachment 29991

I've got a colony with an inspection board I looked at today that is virtually identical in appearance to yours ... they have never been a big colony or that productive (couple of supers from them last season but it took them a long time). Queen is going into her third year - they are nice bees. I don't treat for varroa but they all get sugar rolls regularly and the varroa load in my colony in September was very low. I could see through the clear crownboard that there were plenty of bees around today and they were flying.

If you have vaped them today then you will see a result from the accellerated drop ....as to how many - as has been said, it will depend on what the infestation level is and how many bees there are in the colony ... neither of which you can determine at present.

Either way - vaping them will reduce the level of varroa if they are there and you will see on the board the result and you can make a decision whether to re-treat - I wouldn't worry too much - whilst there is still debris on the board they are alive and if you see them flying that's a good sign.

Sit tight and see what comes onto the board. Not much else you can do ...

 

[elainemary]

You need to be careful with those crystals:

View attachment 29917

I’ve got the same mask (without the visor) it’s from 3M the filters protect you from all organic acid vapours. Just love Walter in that series!

 

[user 20297]

I’ve got the same mask (without the visor) it’s from 3M the filters protect you from all organic acid vapours. Just love Walter in that series!

Jesse too, but Skyler and Marie are better.

 

[BeeGiner]

Absolutely, the thing is is that it's not the varroa per se that cause the problem but rather the virus they vector.
Damage is done by now, all the treatment does now is ensure a relatively clean start to the season if they survive, its beneficial but not as beneficial as an autumn treatment which gives them a bit of a free run to raise winter bees without a crippling virus load and therefore a better chance of survival.

Hi mbc,
I don't think you are right. Varroa being a vector for viruses may be a factor but research shows the major issue is Varroa feeding on the bees fat bodies and weakening them. Suggest you follow the link that Erichalfbee sent to learn more.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi mbc,
I don't think you are right. Varroa being a vector for viruses may be a factor but research shows the major issue is Varroa feeding on the bees fat bodies and weakening them. Suggest you follow the link that Erichalfbee sent to learn more.

It’s not as simple as that. Bees that don’t have varroa exist with multiple strains of DWV which compete against each other without causing disease and the bees remain healthy. Varroa “process” the virus so that only one or two strains remain. Without competition these strains multiply and cause disease.
Varroa breakdown in colonies is multi factorial.

 

[BeeGiner]

It’s not as simple as that. Bees that don’t have varroa exist with multiple strains of DWV which compete against each other without causing disease and the bees remain healthy. Varroa “process” the virus so that only one or two strains remain. Without competition these strains multiply and cause disease.
Varroa breakdown in colonies is multi factorial.

Hmm... Dani, that sounds rather incredible to me. Can you point me at the research?

 

[mbc]

Hi mbc,
I don't think you are right. Varroa being a vector for viruses may be a factor but research shows the major issue is Varroa feeding on the bees fat bodies and weakening them. Suggest you follow the link that Erichalfbee sent to learn more.

Yeah, I don't think you've thought this through.
A colony of 30,000 bees can quite easily collapse with what we'd call parasitic mite syndrome (a bit of a catch all diagnosis) with a varroa load of only a few thousand, probably a lot less if they're carrying the nasty strain of dwv.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

research shows the major issue is Varroa feeding on the bees fat bodies

Hmm, that sounds rather incredible to me, can you show us proof (not just wrong conclusions you have made)

 

[JamezF]

Can you point me at the research?

I'd also be interested, if it's available. The reasoning doesn't seem consistent with my understanding of how viruses work. Which may well mean that I don't really understand how viruses work, granted.

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well you could start here then go through the plethora of links at the bottom of the article.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47447-3Prof David Evans has done lots of work in this. Have a look at his blog and send him a message or an email He’s usually great at explaining things
https://www.theapiarist.org/
Another here
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33298545/
Masses if you Google

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd also be interested, if it's available. The reasoning doesn't seem consistent with my understanding of how viruses work. Which may well mean that I don't really understand how viruses work, granted.

James

The essence is that horizontal transmission of DWV from bee to bee is harmless. Varroa vectored DWV is lethal

 

[mbc]

Hmm, that sounds rather incredible to me, can you show us proof (not just wrong conclusions you have made)

He's probably referring to Sammy's brilliant work on the varroa feeding on the fat bodies, but as you say drawing the wrong conclusion.