WBC or National?

[JCBrum]

Nick W,

Well, it all starts if you decide the WBC is a hive that you would like to use. From what I've seen and heard, some think the problems are -

1. the standard WBC brood box is a bit small.
2. WBC's are not always bee tight in the internal boxes, the frame ends can be exposed etc.
3. WBC's can be expensive, due to the lower manufacturing quantities, and parts are not as common as Nats.
4. The big issue is whether the double wall provides beneficial extra insulation and warmth.

All of the above problems are addressed with a WBC with Nat interior. And two valuable options may be considered in addition. Extra deep BB (14x12) and top bee space.

Just my 2p in case it helps.

 

[JCBrum]

Any comments Hivemaker ? could you supply them ?

 

[buzz]

No, you are not thick, but I have already got Nationals, and the missus would like WBCs in the garden. For commonality it would make sense to use one size of BB and super, ie Nationals (and 14 x12 in my case).

The Nationals with gabled roof are a half-way house (literally), she wants the real McCoy!

From previous posts you can see that it can be done, so i am suprised it is not more common, as one of the drawbacks of the WBC is apparently the small brood box size. Nationals are 10% bigger and a 14 x 12 national is 50-60% bigger than a WBC. None of the beeking books mentions the WBC/National hybrid.

I can live with the hassle of taking off the lifts each time I inspect the bees, but not the nagging from 'er indoors!

 

[JCBrum]

These Diagrams may help someone or be of passing interest to others ......

..

 

[buzz]

Brum

You beat me to it, my thoughts exactly.

 

[JCBrum]

So, Hivemaker, it seems that what is required is a WBC hive that will take National BB and supers which we already own ?

How about it ?

 

[Nick W]

Ok I see! I do see that Paynes do a WBC with 14x12 brood (but I think you an extra lift). Extra £40 or so I think for upgrade.

Nick

 

[buzz]

Nick W

Yes it is possible to get 14 x 12 WBC BBs but these still only fit 10 BS frames rather than the 11 in a Nat, and most importantly I lose commonality with my other hives.

 

[Nick W]

Ok, to seems to be 3 choices (only for Wbc/National):

1) WBC if you really want one
2) Or buy a National and get gabled roof and landing board/legs
3) Get a National and put it in the WBC lift boxes

I dont quite get the benefit of doing the third though - If you want it to look like a WBC just pick option 2 or 1

Nick

 

[hedgerow pete]

personaly if you want two or less i would always say get the wbc with a 12 by 14 brood chamber and an older style of bee, and the endless fun is great if you want to do any manipulations breeding, large honey harvests, massive any thing else get a national or a lang. if you want something beautifull to look at then the wbc has no masters ever all the rest are practical

 

[JCBrum]

Ok, to seems to be 3 choices (only for Wbc/National):

1) WBC if you really want one
2) Or buy a National and get gabled roof and landing board/legs
3) Get a National and put it in the WBC lift boxes

I dont quite get the benefit of doing the third though - If you want it to look like a WBC just pick option 2 or 1

Nick

Doh,,,, ... option 3 makes it look like a WBC, but work like a Mod. Nat. (which is better, try it and see !)

AND, lots of us already own Mod. Nats. which means we only need to buy the outside bits, (floor, lifts, and roof)

 

[Tom Bick]

I think the WBC hive to quote a book bees at the bottom of the garden looks fantastic in that setting as apposed to a couple of towerblocks nationals can look that way at times put a gabled roof on the top and a good stand and landing board on helps but it has not got the charm of a fresh painted WBC.So what I would do is get the WBC alter the bb to a 14x12 or get it with a 14x12 so ok you will have one less frame than a national but just live with it if you had the extra frame it wont stop the bees wanting to swarm yes brood area is one factor but not the only factor others also have to be taken into account. One final point is that if we are talking about two hives you will need a spare and that will be a lot of national and wbc parts it might get a bit confusing the spare in theory is only temporary and can be any old thing.

 

[m100]

The only real solution is for some research to prove WBC's are really bad for the health of bees and then all the aesthetic considerations can be forgotten...leaving you free to use a hive designed in the 20th century rather than the 19th.

Still it could be much worse if her indoors had an obsession with shiny funny coloured plastic hives.

 

[Tom Bick]

The strange thing is as this has now got me thinking the lifts are square so why did they originally make the bb and supers rectangular and not square or have they developed so as to accommodate longer lugs on the more modern frames and no one has ever considered making them wider

 

[JCBrum]

.... a hive designed in the 20th century rather than the 19th.

There's nothing wrong with 19th century design .......

.... or even 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th, .. etc .......

Have a look at a few Cathedrals !


Our beehives are Cathedrals for our Bees, aren't they !

 

[Tom Bick]

Dont get me wrong I Quite agree I am not saying its wrong just wondering why they never maximized or as I suspect the bb and supers have evolved along its length and not width

 

[JCBrum]

Incidentally, for those who are wondering, a correctly designed WBC lift has an a clear aperture of 490mm at the top and 515mm at the bottom, and they are square.

A Mod. Nat. box is 460mm square.

This give an all round clearance of 15mm (over half an inch) at the top of a lift, and 27mm (over 1 inch) around the bottom of a lift. Providing the WBC lifts were made to standard dimensions.

It does actually work out very well. (Theoretically !)

 

[JCBrum]

Tom,

For 16mm (5/8") timber, and box joints, Wbc lifts are 505mm top length, and 546mm bottom length, and 205mm tall, with 16mm sq battens, 13mm up from the bottom edge to support the stack.

If using 18mm construction ply (wbp pref) then I recommend increasing the overall lengths dimensons by 4mm and the height by 25mm.

(apologies if I'm teaching grandmother etc ...... )

JC.

 

[buzz]

JCB

Splitting hairs I know but it may be important:

Ref the internal dimensions for WBC lifts. Your external sizing of 505mm agrees with the plans shown on the Scottish Beekeepers site, but using the standard 5/8" (16mm) thickness wood, this would reduce the internal size to 473mm, or 6-7mm greater than a Nat.

Add a few coats of paint and warping and cutting tolerances and this is quite close. Clearly you and Admin have not had an issue with this, but it might be worth others checking internal dimensions of their WBC before going down this route.

Has anyone had issues with bees building brace comb or propolising between between outer lifts and BB/super?

Any info would be useful before i make the plunge

 

[GingerNut]

Has anyone had issues with bees building brace comb or propolising between between outer lifts and BB/super?

That can't happen as the bees don't have access to the gap, except by accident, which is why there are escape cones in the roof, it's the only way out.

Yours Roy