WBC in uPVC ?

[Little John]

For a couple of years now I've been thinking how neat it would be to convert a National to a quasi-WBC, by making lifts and a gabled roof from wood, and then fibreglassing them, to achieve a more attractive and really weathertight 'National' beehive. But - the work involved, let alone the cost of fibreglassing, made this idea a non-starter.

Fast forward then to the last few days, when by sheer chance I stumbled across a source of cheap s/h off-white uPVC cladding. This stuff is 5" wide, and uses a 1.5" tongue and groove method of jointing - so that two slotted together would make an 8.5" 'plank'.

Seems to me that 8.5" would provide the perfect height for a lift, and 4 lifts and a roof could be made for just £10's worth of uPVC. Gotta be worth a go ?


So - the learning curve commences ...

Somehow I have to figure out an easy method of making an accurate 45 degree mitre cut, at an angle across the uPVC 'plank' of something like 105 degrees (still have to calculate that angle exactly) - so thought I'd canvas ideas from here.

I also have to figure out a way of joining the stuff together.

Off the cuff, I'm thinking of maybe using a light (3/4" x 3/4" section) wooden frame to support the uPVC, and bond the plastic to it for rigidity, then use double-glazing type sealant to seal the edges. Or maybe go 'high-tech' with plastic welding ?

Would certainly appreciate any input/ suggestions etc at this stage.

LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sounds like you're on the right track and better IMHO to adapt a National with it's extra frame than faff around with the slightly smaller WBC box - jigs are available for this kind of cut but another solution would be to butt-joint them and cover with an edging strip much the same as UPVC installers do on their corners

 

[ugcheleuce]

Off the cuff, I'm thinking of maybe using a light (3/4" x 3/4" section) wooden frame to support the uPVC...

My first thought was similar, but to have a frame that is visible from the outside of the hive. Make grooves in the frame so that the uPVC slots into the grooves. If the frame is sturdy, you'd have no need to glue the uPVC to the wood because it would be slotted into the grooves and the bees would seal it.

 

[BeeJayBee]

uPVC cladding. ......

....... I also have to figure out a way of joining the stuff together.

You don't need to butt joint the corners, so no need for a mitre block. You can buy "angle trim", described here http://www.eurocell.co.uk/upvc-trade/454/cladding-fitting-instructions. Plenty for sale on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/pvc-angle-trim

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You don't need to butt joint the corners, so no need for a mitre block. You can buy "angle trim", described here http://www.eurocell.co.uk/upvc-trade/454/cladding-fitting-instructions. Plenty for sale on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/pvc-angle-trim

Dat's the stuff I meant, hides a myriad of sins

 

[Little John]

ugcheleuce - I don't think we're "singing from the same hymn sheet", as it were. What I'm talking about here is essentially a 'weatherproof cover' which fits over a National beehive (without it's telescopic roof), but made in sections, or 'lifts'. In order to get the best results from the uPVC, any wooden framing needs to be inside the uPVC, and thus out of the weather. Likewise the supporting battens which are necessary near the base of each lift and which sit on top of the lift below it.

BeeJoyful - I had dismissed using those angle strips as I think they look a bit 'naff', and only serve to advertise that the material used is uPVC. (The end caps on window sills really are the pits).

But - you're right of course - using that strip would make construction a breeze, as well as giving the corners a very slightly 'rounded' edge - for one of the problems I could foresee with mitering the corners, although it might make for a neater job, it would also produce a sharp edge which would be prone to damage, as well as tearing the arse out of any passing bee suits ...

So yes - it looks like corner strips are the way to go. Thanks for that.

LJ


jenkinsbrynmair - wot me - 'sins' ? ... as if

.

 

[For want of a better word]

I use a WBC hive that has an OMF WBC type floor with the entrance sliders etc, but specifically made to utilise the larger National boxes.
The outer cover are in timber ( white painted ), but could be made out of the uPVC material you suggest.

A corner ~ piece to make up the correct angles, in white injection moulded plastic is what's needed.... I dare say the cost of the mould would be prohibitive... China I wonder?

 

[itma]

... I also have to figure out a way of joining the stuff together.

Not sure I'm answering the question you are asking, but this stuff does work
http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/tiles/..._id=SstKiEo-KSYAAHu5Mg4AAAAA:20130924183116:s
EvoStik "PVC Pipe Weld" adhesive.

 

[REDWOOD]

Have you seen this company, the boards look quite strong, just an option

http://www.kedel.co.uk/recycled-pla...wood-tongue-and-groove-125-x-15-x-2200mm.html

 

[Little John]

Have you seen this company, the boards look quite strong, just an option

http://www.kedel.co.uk/recycled-pla...wood-tongue-and-groove-125-x-15-x-2200mm.html

I would say that board would be a lot better than what I'm about to use, as it appears to have a parallel thickness - much easier to work with - whereas the stuff I have has a weird moulded section - similar to this:

The only way I can immediately see of stabilising the lift - i.e. keeping it square - is to glue wooden blocks in the area marked in red.

But - at £1 for 2400mm, as opposed to £15 for 2200mm - reckon I'll be staying with the cheap 'n' cheerful stuff for now, as it was the economical source of supply which attracted me to using it.

LJ

 

[REDWOOD]

A wooden block would do the job but as you said they will have to be kept square because of the profile. Good luck with the project

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Great thread: thanks guys, v inspirational as I think about alternative materials for hives. One idea I am toying with is concrete moulded in a THIN skin around Kingspan, but this is an excellent alternative train of thought.

 

[REDWOOD]

Two things wrong with concrete
weight and brittleness, they have been done before but never took off
If you want a kingspan hive that looks like wood paint it with wood grain paints or sticky backed plastic is another option. If you want something bespoke try this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2211...ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=92&ff19=0
I don't know what the bees will make of it

 

[Little John]

So I priced the 2-part uPVC angle ...


... and have decided to stick with my original idea of a complex (double angle) mitre joint, on the basis that I can always glue a simple uPVC angle over the edge should it be needed.

Made a router sledge - took a short while to figure everything out (like it always does on any Mk.I) - and here's a shot of a loose fit-up of the first angle cut on the first lift:

And a close-up:

Reckon I'll settle for that. Now have to figure out a way of holding the four pieces together while the glue sets.

First thoughts are to fit spacers to the sides of a brood box, and make a couple of square hoops to drop down over the lift while the glue hardens.

It's all good fun.

LJ

 

[itma]

... Now have to figure out a way of holding the four pieces together while the glue sets.
...

Hive strap round the 'groove'?

 

[sipa]

Rubber bungees work well too...

I sometimes use inner tube.

 

[REDWOOD]

Respect

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2211...ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=92&ff19=0
I don't know what the bees will make of it

Hahaha! Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going with 6mm ply skins.

LJ: those are some serious skills. "router" = table-mounted, right? Any chance of a shot of the sled, for inspiration?

 

[Little John]

LJ: those are some serious skills. "router" = table-mounted, right? Any chance of a shot of the sled, for inspiration?

Sure - BTW - DIY Quick an' Dirty Router Table thread is here:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24355

But before launching into the router sled info ...

One of the more inventive of the forum members recently PM'ed me saying

" ... don't you find that, when you are making things where the design is not a fixed plan but an evolution of the materials you can lay your hands on, you spend more time thinking, modifying, making jigs to make things fit and generally buggering about than you do actually making the damn thing !! "

Now there is someone who understands the process exactly !


Ok - so I wanted to cut a compound mitre - how's this done ? Of course - using a mitre saw. Simples.
Except that the mitre saw I have is only adjustable in one axis. No worries - I can bodge that, but first I need to calculate the angles involved - so - time to brush up on three-dimensional trig.

Several hours later, and having worn-out the brain cell (singular), I commence to cutting (as they say in the southern states) - only to discover that the mitre saw can only handle a 4" plank on edge, whereas the 'planks' I have are 5". Stupid, stupid - should have checked that first ...

So how about using a router instead ? But how can I possibly translate the angles I've laboriously calculated onto a router table ... ? (It goes on and on like this ...)

The answer of course is not to bother, but use rectangular (X-Y-Z) co-ordinates instead, and let the angles take care of themselves. Much relief for the brain cell.

Ok - so the router table fence (Y co-ordinate) is non-adjustable (i.e. fixed at zero), that leaves an adjustable incline (Z co-ordinate), onto which the plank can be 'rotated' in the X axis.



Introducing then, the 'Little John' router sled Mk.I (the light was fading a bit, so I took it outside to photograph):

Back view - showing the piano hinge, together with the 2 quadrant window-openers which vary the Z-axis - all stuff I happened to have handy in the shed. Two lengths of threaded rod with nuts and washers would do exactly the same job.

Front view - nothing interesting here - just showing why there are two X-axis guides.

Another front view, showing the other guide in use. Now the red arrow is pointing at one of the 'datum lines' as I call them - which are at exactly 90 degrees to the router table fence. The distance from there to the adjustable 'guide fence' at a given height will give you the correct angle for the amount of 'splay' the lift is to have. I have opted for a 2.5" splay - just a little more than the WBC standard of 1-7/8".
There's nothing sacred about the 'Splay' angle - the only thing which really matters is that whatever angle you choose - it MUST be equal on both sides.

Hope that's a bit clearer ...


As I'm sure you realise, the photo is a mock-up with the routered 'plank' just placed roughly in position. But - to the left of the word 'Pat' (pattern) is a small black mark - this would normally coincide with the line 1/2" above it, to which the blue arrow is pointing.

So - the procedure is to first cut the uPVC planks roughly to size (make two of them slightly longer). Finger-paint some sealant onto the tongue and slot 'em together. Don't be tempted to fill the groove with lots of sealant - 'cause hydraulic forces will stop the tongue and groove from being closed (ask me how I know this ...). Leave overnight to set.

With the router sledge Z-axis set to a tad over 45 degrees, router one end each of the two longer 'double-planks' just made, and fit them together against a National Deep. Unless you're exceptionally lucky, they won't butt-up flush. So - adjust the sledge incline (the Z-axis) and router again - and repeat - until they do. That's why you need two longer planks !

Ok - once you have the Z-axis set to give you the perfect mitred joint - carefully router the other end of one of the planks already started, ensuring that it's length is accurate. Then mark the edge of that plank at it's midpoint and replace it on the router sledge, so that the routered edge just touches the router blade.

Transfer the plank's centre mark to the sledge, and repeat on the other side. Join those marks with a line.

You now have a means of ensuring that the planks are cut to exactly the same length: router one end/ remove and place against the Pattern plank/ transfer the mark onto the plank to be cut/ router the other end until the mark coincides with the reference line. Then - every plank comes out with exactly the same angles, and at exactly the same length.


It's actually a lot simpler to do than the rather wordy description above suggests. The challenging bit (for me) was figuring out how to do it.

LJ

 

[VEG]

Fair play to you. You have too much spare time lol. Well done.


Craig