Wasps - have I missed something?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There is only one single wasp in this area as well,saw it for the second time yesterday afternoon..

 

[Karol]

Hi Karol, I don’t perceive you as a threat, but I do not like to see info posted as fact when that is not the case, especially when it’s my business that you are talking about.

I could retort by asking you why it is that orthodox pest control has singularly failed to reduce sting rates, especially because patient health is my business but I think that would be elitist and devisive

We have been here before, and once again I will ask you to explain your theory of “landing rights” in the case where folk have blocked the entrance to a nest (not treated it with insecticide) and days afterwards there are foraging wasps still trying to get into the nest, by any means possible (even chewing their way in)

The mistake here is to assume that communications within a nest are unidimensional. They're not. Moreover, what your observations fail to take into account is that wasps are a) intelligent, b) millimeter precise navigators and c) will use pheromones and noise to communicate. Wasps are able to differentiate blocked entrances from the absence of sentries simply by virtue that the blockage by definition will be a certain distance from the entry point. And, did you know for example that wasps also communicate through noise, especially grubs which emit low sound wave noise that is not detectable to the human ear. Those sounds pass through solids! A blocked entry will induce stress and as a consequence wasps will release stress pheromone to illicit help. If the blockage is air tight that's all well and good. If not it will only serve to increase efforts to access the nest and yes, wasps will chew through solid timber and plaster and mortar to regain entry.

Wasps also release danger pheromones as well as stress pheromones. These pheromones are different in as much as they warn off wasps from a dangerous place. That's one of the reasons why unsophisticated wasp traps stop attracting wasps and need cleaning and washing out to get them started again. It's interesting to see just how quickly resident wasps leave a nest that's treated. Ever cracked open a nest to find a few straggling wasps still alive inside not killed by pesticide but the rest of the nest abandonned? That jump ship reaction isn't in response to the pesticide alone which doesn't necessarily penetrate deep enough into the nest to kill all wasps therein. It's also in response to danger pheromones being released and as the wasps jump ship they pass through the pesticide at the entrance which then kills them off (if they haven't already been exposed).

As an experienced professional pest controller, you'll also appreciate that different pest controllers do things slightly differently. Some pest controllers will just spray or dust the entrance to a nest. Others will lance the nest to make sure the centre of the nest gets a full blast of pesticide. Some will only treat entry points. Other make a point of treating the actual nest. All of these things make a difference and my comments relate to general practice not necessarily best practice.

When a nest IS treated with insecticide, an hour or two after treatment there are virtually no wasps present. Are you really trying to tell me that when a nest is treated, all the foragers simply fly off away from their home with no hope left whatsoever? Yet stick some expanding foam into the entrance of the nest and they will be determined to get back in for days afterwards.

If you treat a nest before 7.00 am with a (knock down) pesticide so that the whole of the nest gets a full whack (i.e. not just the entrance), the nest will be chokka full of dead wasps that are incapacitated on the spot.

The foragers don't re-enter the nest. I've got video footage courtesy of ABM which clearly shows returning foragers waiting at the entrance to a nest, not getting access rights so never re-entering whilst resident wasps abandon the nest becoming contaminated as they leave.

Your theory is that wasps need some form of visual nod to gain access to the nest, right? So why would they give up so quickly with a treated nest, yet plug on for days with a nest that is blocked?

By the same token, you could ask why treated nests are virtually empty (your words). Surely the counter argument is that if wasps spend days trying to get back into a nest which is blocked then they would go back into a nest which isn't blocked and die in the nest just the same as the 30 - 40 wasps that are routinely found in the nest after treatment that have been exposed directly to pesticide.

You can fool some people some of the time, but you can’t fool everyone all of the time.

What do I stand to gain that you think I'm trying to fool people?

My position has always been clear. Nests need to be treated where they are a direct threat to human health which basically means every nest found within a home. The fact that this has the potential to create nuisance wasps is surely an opportunity for pest controllers to extend their services and gain more revenue? If you don't think there's a need because you don't agree with 'my theory' then you are free to continue providing your services in the manner you deem fit as is your perogative.

It still doesn't answer the question why places like Legoland saw no reduction in sting rates despite treating hundreds of wasp nests on site each year?

That's a question which I have answered and solved through IWM which is why these places have adopted IWM and rejected orthodox methods.

 

[jimsbees]

I must pick up on that point, Karol, about the wasps being after the protein in my hive. That really fills in the blanks for me. I couldn't work out how there could so quickly be no brood, no bees and no apparent attempt to requeen.....just wasps and more wasps. The only dead bodies were those of wasps. And then they moved on to the honey.
There's no way I want this to happen again. I perceived this as quite a strong colony and didn't really have time to see it get sick.

 

[Karol]

I must pick up on that point, Karol, about the wasps being after the protein in my hive. That really fills in the blanks for me. I couldn't work out how there could so quickly be no brood, no bees and no apparent attempt to requeen.....just wasps and more wasps. The only dead bodies were those of wasps. And then they moved on to the honey.
There's no way I want this to happen again. I perceived this as quite a strong colony and didn't really have time to see it get sick.

It is tragic when it happens and it can happen in the blink of an eye which is why beeks get caught out unawares. The average wasp nest will consume something like 4000Kg to 5000 Kg of insects over about 16 weeks on an exponential basis. That's about 80Kg per day towards the end of the hunting phase! How much does a large colony of bees weigh? About 50 to 75Kg?

 

[Headnavigator]

It is tragic when it happens and it can happen in the blink of an eye which is why beeks get caught out unawares.

Thanks, Karol, it's some comfort to read this because I thought I was keeping a fairly close watch on my hives. I hadn't reckoned for one moment on the destructive ability of these creatures, and wonder if the fact that many of us are only able to take a few moments morning and evening during the week means that we miss wasp activity that might be more obvious during the day? I think beecams will be on the shopping list before next year.

 

[merylvingien]

Hi Karol, I think we will have to agree to disagree, because you believe one thing based on your experience and I believe another thing based on my experience.

I will however say that since you mentioned the landing rights theory a couple of years ago to me, I have since paid more attention and watched post treatment entrances and foragers do re-enter. Initially there is a chaotic reaction which is pretty much instant and I would hazard a guess that this a phenomenal defence response. But after this subsides, things calm down and they do go back in and come back out.

Not sure who ABM is, unless you mean Martyn from ABM pest control.
You say treat a nest before 7.00am, I presume you mean before dawn (as wasps don’t use a clock) and the majority will die within the nest! That is exactly what I would expect to happen. Wasps cannot see very well in the dark and reluctant to fly. When treating nests in lofts, I always leave the lights off and use a small torch to find my way to the nest, when treating the nest, the torch is off. This prevents loads of flyers coming at me and reduces the chances of me getting stung.

If however customers have been kind enough to switch the loft lights on before I arrived, it can then get a tad emotional.

 

[Karol]

Hi Karol, I think we will have to agree to disagree, because you believe one thing based on your experience and I believe another thing based on my experience.

That's fine but we do agree on one thing, after a nest is treated only a few wasps remain in the nest - right?

And I say that quoting you directly - right?

So what do you believe has happened to the 2,000 to 5,000 foragers (rising to 20,000 in large nests)?

 

[Hivemaker.]

So what do you believe has happened to the 2,000 to 5,000 foragers (rising to 20,000 in large nests)?

Are they not dead if the nest is destroyed when they are all at home during the night,or do these 2,000 to 20,000 wasps not live in the nest at night.

 

[Finman]

.
That is strange.

Wasps eate mostly aphids on tree canopy. They bring honey, sugar or what ever if they find a good source.

But wasps do not attack even into smallest hives.

It has happened twice to you.- ???

 

[merylvingien]

That's fine but we do agree on one thing, after a nest is treated only a few wasps remain in the nest - right?

And I say that quoting you directly - right?

So what do you believe has happened to the 2,000 to 5,000 foragers (rising to 20,000 in large nests)?

Actually no, you are not quoting me, i was merely refering to your previous statment that there are few wasps left in a nest after treatment, last years discussion.

The theory is all yours my friend.

I believe that a nest treated during the day will vary in how many dead wasps are left inside the nest, the remainder will die outside over a large area.

I as many others interested in this particular topic would love to see scientific proof of your claims.

 

[Karol]

I believe this is what you quoted earlier:

Hi Karol, I don’t perceive you as a threat, <snip>
When a nest IS treated with insecticide, an hour or two after treatment there are virtually no wasps present.
<snip>

And you went on to say:

I believe that a nest treated during the day will vary in how many dead wasps are left inside the nest, the remainder will die outside over a large area

We will agree to disagree I think that much has been established save that I have added caveats as to when foragers are likely to get caught within the nest and when foragers will re-enter the nest where the sentries are preserved where the sentry (access/landing) point is remote to the nest (which is what happens when nests are treated in attics).

What I have difficulty in reconciling is what then happens with all these countless thousands of wasps contaminated with pesticides that are then dispersed over a wide area? What's the ecological impact of that?

I don't subscribe to your position because my experience teaches me otherwise and I repeat, taking just the Merlin group as an example, when they ceased to eradicate nests during the day, their nuisance wasp season reverted to type and they had fewer nuisance wasps resulting in fewer stings. I don't need to prove anything to you. I'm happy enough for the majority of theme parks and zoos (and their contracted pest controllers) to adopt IWM.

Because I don't subscribe to your position I don't see there being a wider ecological problem of loads of pesticide contaminated wasps dying all over the place.

Whichever way one cuts it, wasp nest eradication needs to be judicious rather than the knee jerk reaction that it currently is and IWM is complementary not competitive so I really don't see what the issue is.

 

[merylvingien]

I see where the confusion is. When i say there are virtually no wasps present an hour or so after a nest is treated, i mean live flying wasps. Not actual dead bodies contained within the nest.

For the record, i dont have any problems with wasp traps or the way your business impacts on my business simply due to the fact that neither impact on the other.

But when you make statements based on assumptions without credible research and facts which prove your theories, and then publish them to the world as fact, thats when things get touchy.

You appear to base your entire theory based on one particular experience with a theme park. As a scientist, you will know that far more widespread scroutiny is needed before a theory can be based as a scientific fact.

 

[Karol]

<snip>
You appear to base your entire theory based on one particular experience with a theme park. As a scientist, you will know that far more widespread scroutiny is needed before a theory can be based as a scientific fact.

If as you say you don't feel threatened (which you shouldn't) by IWM, then I don't understand why you feel you need to denigrate it.

ONE particular experience with A theme park? Really? This really has ceased to become an informative debate. However, having questioned the breadth of the IWM experience I am obliged to respond to say that a small part of that experience has been gained over more than a decade spent working with dozens of theme parks and zoos based in the UK, Holland, Germany and Sweden. The rest of the experience/research has been gained by digesting over 700 scholarly papers, field and laboratory testing and testing in other applications including apiaries, aviaries, distillaries, sugar refineries, food factories, community waste disposal facilities and catering outlets to name but a few.

As a scientist I'm not afraid in the slightest when it comes to independant scrutiny. I guess the ultimate test will be the court test case when someone sues for damages for negligence. Not that I welcome that because by definition it means that someone will have already been unnecessarily harmed.

I've run my course. I don't think I have much more to add regarding the merits of injudicious wasp nest eradication.

 

[merylvingien]

I sort of expected that responce, as anyone can refer to what experience they have or have not.

If you had any credible facts to hand then you would indeed pour them out for everyone to see and be amazed.
I am afraid that you have lost any crediabilty that i once had in you and your research and theories

 

[Lorenz]

Most years a lot of the call outs for swarms are wasps. If the people have no money and are vulnerable, I go back when it is dark and slip a thick plastic rubble bag over the nest and then push a rag soaked in a pint of petrol into the nest with a stick and do up the bag with tape. They all die. There are no bees the next day.

Hardly any wasps so far this year in London.

 

[Karol]

I sort of expected that responce, as anyone can refer to what experience they have or have not.

Indeed. I don't suppose you've got evidence to hand to swing the argument? I'd be more than happy to take it on the chin if you have. Simple video footage of foragers re-entering a nest that's been treated where the sentries are visibly abscent would do.

If you had any credible facts to hand then you would indeed pour them out for everyone to see and be amazed.

Save that most of the evidence is branded and this forum has strict rules governing commercial behaviour.

I am afraid that you have lost any crediabilty that i once had in you and your research and theories

Notwithstanding the way you now feel I think it's a shame you never really found time to properly try IWM for yourself but as you said yourself, you were too busy last year treating nests. I hope next year will be better for you.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Most years a lot of the call outs for swarms are wasps. If the people have no money and are vulnerable, I go back when it is dark and slip a thick plastic rubble bag over the nest and then push a rag soaked in a pint of petrol into the nest with a stick and do up the bag with tape. They all die. There are no bees the next day.

Hardly any wasps so far this year in London.

I presume you mean, "wasps" - or am I missing something?

Dusty

 

[richardbees]

My bees are close to two plum trees and the ground is covered with rotten fermenting plums......in other years I'd have had a dozen wasp traps out but I haven't seen a wasp yet.

The total absence of wasps this year makes me wonder what 'wasp fodder' has been spared to turn into a huge pestilence next year.

 

[tkwinston4]

http://www.sussexwildlifetrust.org.uk/blog/2012/09/why-are-wasps-so-irritating/ just seen this article, is it true about them being a little bit tiddled? Karol?

 

[Karol]

http://www.sussexwildlifetrust.org.uk/blog/2012/09/why-are-wasps-so-irritating/ just seen this article, is it true about them being a little bit tiddled? Karol?

Bit of an old wives tale!

The food that adults get from their grubs is optimized, i.e. it has the ideal carbohydrates in the right concentrations to optimize adult performance. The thing to remember is that wasps burn terrific amounts of energy for their size so they need high quality, high energy fuel.

Once there are no grubs left in the nest, adults are forced to find sweet liquid foods elsewhere. The problem with fruit is that the sugar content in fruit juice is really low by comparison and there are two consequences to this. The first is that wasps have to drink considerably more liquid to get the same amount of sugar, i.e. they become much heavier. Heavy wasps find it much harder to fly. Secondly and more importantly, the quality and quantity of the sugars being so low means that the wasps have even less energy to 'copter' all that extra weight around. So, what we see are wasps which appear to be drunk - i.e. not very capable of reacting quickly or flying particularly well.

Unfortunately that makes wasps especially dangerous. Not because it makes them any more aggressive. It simply means that they can't get out of our way quick enough so we come into physical contact with them and we get stung as a consequence.