VSH Testing

[B+.]

You are a part of bigger group. You could not have afford to your own strains.

It sound stupid to tell to 2 hive owners or 20 hive owners,how real breeding work goes . Many however believe that they can keep their 10 hives' genepool on their backyard, and mite often, if you have one good hive, you can copy paste it to the end of the world.

Being part of a group brings many benefits Finman.
We share stock and information. We also work together to test groups of sisters in different environments.
Last year, I received 3 VSH queens to test (only 1 survives) and, next year, I hope to have pipettes of 100% VSH drone semen to share with other members of the group. By co-operating, we all win.

 

[Beefriendly]

Yet you couldn't make the leap to selective. Very odd.

Have a nice day!

 

[Finman]

Being part of a group brings many benefits Finman.
We share stock and information. We also work together to test groups of sisters in different environments.
Last year, I received 3 VSH queens to test (only 1 survives) and, next year, I hope to have pipettes of 100% VSH drone semen to share with other members of the group. By co-operating, we all win.

This beekeeping level has been enough to me. I know that it has tied too much time from members of my family.

When I buy ready good queens from other beekeepers, that is the way what I go.
.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When I buy ready good queens from other beekeepers, that is the way what I go.
.

But somebody has to breed those queens...just not you...

 

[Finman]

But somebody has to breed those queens...just not you...

No one need to breed them. Look Pargyle, how easyly it happened. When he started, he just pickd VHS bees from tree twig.

.

 

[B+.]

he just pickd VHS bees from tree twig.

Can you still get VHS? I thought everything was DVD/BluRay now

 

[Fusion_power]

I've only had high VSH for the last year though.

I've only had highly mite resistant bees for 12 years now. Are they VSH? Yes as demonstrated by removal of brood if infested with mites. Do they have other traits for mite resistance? Yes as demonstrated by their easily observed behavior of grooming each other and removal of any mites found. Do they have a ton of flaws still? Yes, as demonstrated by their willingness to swarm and being slightly more aggressive than I like. Do they still produce a decent amount of honey? Yes, as shown by single hive production of 120 pounds in an area that averages under 60 pounds.

Contrary to your derisive statement, l happen to know that Carniolans express VSH as a low level. I also had read about the search effort as "mite counting" events were held to test colonies for VSH behavior. I also had read this https://aristabeeresearch.org/varroa-resistance/ which you might have linked in an effort to bolster your position. They are diplomatic to a fault as shown by the last paragraph

The Arista Bee Research foundation is in the process of establishing links and cooperation with these initiatives to ensure optimal use of knowledge and resources and where possible integrate and exchange materials and methods

Also worth discussing would be your plans to cross the VSH dones to other queens that show very low stinging, high honey production, etc. Have you by chance looked to see how many generations of queens had to be raised and tested to stabilize a strain that express both VSH and Grooming traits?

Since you enjoy reading about arista, here are some webpages relevant to the discussion.

https://aristabeeresearch.org/

https://beecare.bayer.com/bilder/up...ENOW_GB_gettingritofmitesi77l4meyi8bi0a83.pdf


Re your comment about the beekeeper that had several thousand colonies tested for hygienic behavior, don't you find it a bit difficult to deride the efforts of other beekeepers to improve their bees? The beekeeper in question is commercial and has made a major effort to identify a trait for improvement of his bees. He is following through by raising queens and will repeat the cycle of breeding and testing until his operation is fully hygienic. My hat is off to any beekeeper willing to put that much effort into bee improvement.

Finman will have to answer for Finland, but VHS tapes and players are still available here. I purchased some VHS tapes at an auction a few days ago because it is a cheap way to get some movies for grandkids to watch.

 

[B+.]

l happen to know that Carniolans express VSH as a low level.

Thats quite a sweeping statement.

 

[Fusion_power]

Thats quite a sweeping statement.

The first bees that showed mite resistance here in the U.S. were Carniolans.

 

[B+.]

The first bees that showed mite resistance here in the U.S. were Carniolans.

That may be true, but, it's not what you said.
You can only know something if it's been tested. Even then, you can only know it for that particular sample. You have to ask yourself; is the sample representative of the population, and then, you can say it within a certain confidence limit.

 

[Finman]

.
Russian bee is famous for its mite resistancy. Its typical winter cluster is 3-4 frames. Such bees cannot go over winter in Finland, and if it goes, it is not able to build up so quickly that it gets yield.

Reports from USA tells, that lots of hives named as VSH, do not have much more better tolerancy against varroa.

When varroa double itself in a month, those special bees die only later...

 

[B+.]

.
Reports from USA tells, that lots of hives named as VSH, do not have much more better tolerancy against varroa.

When varroa double itself in a month, those special bees die only later...

From what I hear, they test the mother (or even sister) and assume the same %VSH is transmitted to the daughters. This makes it easier to test but doesn't account for heritability of the trait.
As always, I think it's best to test something yourself. Then you know what you have.

 

[Finman]

From what I hear, they test the mother (or even sister) and assume the same %VSH is transmitted to the daughters. This makes it easier to test but doesn't account for heritability of the trait.
As always, I think it's best to test something yourself. Then you know what you have.

These tests has been made by universities, when they wanted to know, how effective those bees are against varroa.

The researchers revieled that there are lots of humbug in that VSH business. And that humbug is essentiam part of CCD.


There are many very sad stories at the end, when guys have tried to breed their specual queen.

To test those special breeds is perhaps a good idea. It revieles, that those bees are not actually so special.

Like bees in Gotland, they stay alive. But the cluster size is so small, that bees cannot survive in Finland. But the story is beautifull.

 

[B+.]

The researchers revieled that there are lots of humbug in that VSH business. And that humbug is essentiam part of CCD.

I am sure you're right Finman. You have to look very closely at what is being done. Sometimes, it's not the results but the tests themselves that are suspect.

 

[Finman]

.
Those mite resistant stories have been amazing, but I have wondered why practice has not went so splended.

Surely beekeepers have tried/tested those queens and noticed that the truth is something else than advertising.

I bought mite resistant bees and kept them several years. The hives had as much mites as normal bees.

That was my test, and that was enough to me. After that I have read stories with new eyes. And then I shoild use small cell foundations... Thanks, but no,... thanks.

And naturall cells..... Even if the feral bees we first to die for varroa..

I think that university world did not want to kill new ideas on running feet, and it took almost 10 years that critical answers appeared.
.


.

 

[B+.]

.
Those mite resistant stories have been amazing, but I have wondered why practice has not went so splended.

Surely beekeepers have tried/tested those queens and noticed that the truth is something else than advertising.

I bought mite resistant bees and kept them several years. The hives had as much mites as normal bees.

That was my test, and that was enough to me. After that I have read stories with new eyes.

.

I think people believe what they are told. Few have the inclination to test it for themselves, or, they are put off by the need to spend a couple of hours at a microscope (I encourage everyone I know to do it).
I should reiterate that the colony I tested has scored highly and, if she survives winter, will feature heavily in my breeding work for next year. I have also been asked to send micropipettes of semen from her drones back to the Netherlands for inclusion in further studies.
Clearly, VSH is not a magic bullet and although I had to compress the mites into a small area of brood to get my sample (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3853), there are still mites there (the objective is to achieve control - not complete absence of mites). That fact should not be ignored. Perhaps there is a role for the other traits Fusion refers to, but, we will need much better tests than we currently have upon which to base further work. Until then, I will continue breeding for the range of traits which beekeepers want.

 

[Finman]

.
Beekeeping cannot be that difficult.

My job has been whole my life to find the truth. That I made in work. That was what we were educated to do in unversity 5 years. To find facts and experts which we can trust on.

When I started beekeeping at the age of 15, it was not difficult to see, what kind of giant of intelligence the beekeepers are.

 

[Fusion_power]

That may be true, but, it's not what you said.

How do you think I know that Carniolans express VSH at a low level? Make a basic assumption that I obtained some queens from the survivors back in the late 1990's. Presume also that they were not mite resistant enough to survive without treatments but they were better than the average Italian queens of the day. Once the Primorski bees were tested and the trait analyzed it was determined that those original resistant colonies were expressing VSH.

The Dutch research to find VSH Carniolan bees started with colonies that survived and thrived maintaining low mite counts when other colonies were collapsing. They made single drone inseminations and selected from the colonies that expressed VSH. The result is the bees you are working with. Other efforts leveraged VSH populations developed in the U.S.

It is not hard to test for mite grooming. You need a few hundred colonies and some sticky boards. Put the boards in and remove them a few hours later. Count the percentage of chewed and damaged mites. Breed from the colonies with the highest percentage.

In the meantime, I have more queen cells to distribute to mating nucs. I'll keep my mite resistant bees and keep selecting for better performance.

 

[Finman]

.
Late 1990... It is 20 years ago.

Any progress?

At least varroa has become more difficult.

Russian bee breeding started 1994.

....... Apistan was favorit during that time.

 

[B+.]

How do you think I know that Carniolans express VSH at a low level? Make a basic assumption that I obtained some queens from the survivors back in the late 1990's. Presume also that they were not mite resistant enough to survive without treatments but they were better than the average Italian queens of the day. Once the Primorski bees were tested and the trait analyzed it was determined that those original resistant colonies were expressing VSH.

The Dutch research to find VSH Carniolan bees started with colonies that survived and thrived maintaining low mite counts when other colonies were collapsing. They made single drone inseminations and selected from the colonies that expressed VSH. The result is the bees you are working with. Other efforts leveraged VSH populations developed in the U.S.

It is not hard to test for mite grooming. You need a few hundred colonies and some sticky boards. Put the boards in and remove them a few hours later. Count the percentage of chewed and damaged mites. Breed from the colonies with the highest percentage.

In the meantime, I have more queen cells to distribute to mating nucs. I'll keep my mite resistant bees and keep selecting for better performance.

Although I work in the Dutch group, BeeBreed has been working towards varroa tolerance for a long time. Look at the Kirchhain LLH and Arbeitsgemeinschaft Toleranzzucht.
The US VSH population used multiple drone insemination and required a huge amount of work to find VSH. The European approach uses single drone inseminations to isolate and expand the trait. It's based on the same idea but the development timescale will be different. It's still in its infancy but is already showing good progress.
The work I am most familiar with is in the carnica population so I don't really have too much knowledge of what the Buckfast group does, except for the occasional update I receive.
The approaches differ, not just in the sdi/mdi approach, but, the US focus was on developing VSH in isolation while the European approach is that its developed within a population that already expresses high levels of performance in other traits. Personally, I prefer the European approach, but, there are some challenges to be overcome too.

I think you are overlooking the problems with the method you suggest. There are concerns over how the damage was caused in the mites on a sticky board that make the results of questionable value. It also requires a lot of work to critically analyse the samples that put it on a par with VSH testing in terms of the effort required. It is not a simple test.