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us armchair experts have to have someone to set us straight.

The thing that bugs me is that people seem to want it handed to them on a plate....all tied up neatly with a nice little bow. The real world isn't like that! It isn't just the information presented in a single paper but the pattern that develops when one paper leads onto another. Sometimes there are areas of overlap and sometimes there are gaps that still need to be filled in.....but....look for the pattern and see where all this is leading us.
You have to put your stake in the ground at some point or you sit there watching others dictate how things will be. I am just completely fed up with the apathy I see on this forum....maybe I need a break.
 
Thats exactly my point. It isn't up to me. People should get off their fat arse and do some work for themselves.

I am and what I'm finding from getting up off my fat arse (how did you know BTW?) and reading I'm questioning what I find. One should never trust or follow blindly what someone else says. Although we often do with professional liars; that's politicians in any language.
Without disrespect I don't think you don't know the answer, perhaps it might be worth you asking your Prof if he could enlighten a load of fat arsed beekeepers as to the reasons hygienic behavior is considered to be so important in combating varroa and is incorporated as a major part of an international breeding program.
I'd also appreciate your asking him why he hasn't taken a similar approach to Br. Adam's and taken bees that are varroa tolerant (by whatever mechanism) and then breed that trait into the Carniolans?. With II it would be a doddle.
 
The thing that bugs me is that people seem to want it handed to them on a plate....all tied up neatly with a nice little bow. The real world isn't like that! It isn't just the information presented in a single paper but the pattern that develops when one paper leads onto another. Sometimes there are areas of overlap and sometimes there are gaps that still need to be filled in.....but....look for the pattern and see where all this is leading us.
You have to put your stake in the ground at some point or you sit there watching others dictate how things will be. I am just completely fed up with the apathy I see on this forum....maybe I need a break.

Understood but some lead and some follow, it has ever been so.

And lots sit on the sidelines throwing rocks and branches but at the end of the day they have to simply be ignored (and I know I'm not very good at that myself).

Of course it may well not be apathy but ignorance at several levels startng with an inability to argue without moving the goalposts or getting personal.

Keep up the good work, please.
 
Nothing pleases beekeepers more than a good argument with the morning coffee.

what an ordinary beekeeper can do in VHS , ... nothing
An ordinary beekeeper can do whatever he or she chooses to do, pick a place, put a stake in the ground, and start to work. My stake in the ground came 11 years ago and is dramatically different than what B+ is doing. I started with a mite tolerant swarm and added some known mite tolerant stock from Purvis. For 11 years now, my bees have gradually eliminated any mite susceptible colonies so that all that is left are mite tolerant. There were sacrifices such as getting much more swarming than I care to manage. The end result is a diamond in the rough, bees that need a lot more work in terms of selecting for management traits.

Part of me envies B+. He has access to stock that I can't get here in the U.S. Another part of me knows that what I am doing is just as valid because I am working to transition a huge region of the U.S. to mite tolerant genetics. There are queens I raised in 3 more areas now, 7 queens in California where the worst imaginable test conditions apply. The others in two operations where hobby beekeepers with 20 to 50 colonies are working on going treatment free. I'm just a tiny part of this, most of it is in the hands of hobby beekeepers who are doing exactly what I did. Get mite tolerant stock and stop purchasing commercial mite susceptible queens.

Someone questioned hygienic behavior and why it is valuable. I can answer that. When the tests were being run in Baton Rouge, they had identified some colonies as "SMR" (suppression of mite reproduction). They did not understand the mechanism by which the mite populations were held in check. When queens were sent to Marla Spivak, she found that they were ultra hygienic. When she notified the Baton Rouge team of her findings, they went back and tested to see how the bees were controlling varroa and found that they were actively uncapping and removing brood infested with mites. They then renamed the behavior "VSH" (varroa sensitive hygiene). Spivak then went back to her hygienic selections and found that the strongest hygienic behavior is positively correlated with VSH. So the reason for focusing on hygienic behavior is because it is a net positive for colony health and it is positively linked with VSH. This does not make hygienic behavior a cure all for varroa, but it is one more link in a chain of traits that bees need to fend off varroa. The short version is that all VSH bees are highly hygienic, but not all hygienic bees are highly VSH.

Four resistance/tolerance traits are exhibited in my bees. I can prove easily that they exhibit Varroa Sensitive Hygiene. I've even caught them in the act of removing infested larvae and pointed it out to visiting beekeepers. I can prove my bees exhibit high levels of allogrooming and mite mauling. These are two separate traits, bees may self groom or may groom each other, but this is most beneficial if they chew on the mites causing physical damage. The fourth trait my bees exhibit is abrupt shutdown of drone production when nectar and pollen are in short supply. This means I see a huge pulse of drones produced in March, April, and May, then none in June to October. There are obvious implications for areas with different nectar and pollen patterns than here.

Sometimes people need to be pushed out of their comfort zone. If you as a beekeeper have gotten comfortable with treating your bees for mites, maybe it is time to wake up and smell the coffee. When you insist on treatment free genetics, voila, breeders will start to produce treatment free genetics. It will be a rocky road with many pitfalls along the way, but if you really want to do it, you can get there. Queen breeders in the U.S. offer queens with a range of mite tolerance traits. You can get the same level of selection or better in the EU. As B+ has shown, you can work with advanced genetics and have the best of both worlds.
 
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The others in two operations where hobby beekeepers with 20 to 50 colonies are working on going treatment free

Sometimes people need to be pushed out of their comfort zone.

If you as a beekeeper have gotten comfortable with treating your bees for mites, maybe it is time to wake up and smell the coffee. .

IT is enough to me when I read this level stories.

Mite is not so important that it rules my life, and not even my beekeeping.
 
IT is enough to me when I read this level stories.

Mite is not so important that it rules my life, and not even my beekeeping.

What does appear to rule your life is honey production and it seems to bee paramount to all other considerations in your arguments.

Honey is not the bee all and end all in mine, but that does not mean I cant learn from you.
 
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With II it would be a doddle.

I would hardly say it was a doddle.
You are missing the point that I am working within a closed population of pure carniolans. If either the dam or the sire doesn't exits in the database, I can't enter any of the progeny. There has to be some control over this or everything that has been gained to date can be lost.
 
If you as a beekeeper have gotten comfortable with treating your bees for mites, maybe it is time to wake up and smell the coffee

That refers to Finman and 99.9999999999999999% of other beekeepers!
Try to keep it is context- yes mite resistant bees would be great but I cant see it happening that soon. In the mean time the rest of us need to keep treating our bees for mites, getting skilled at using 'soft methods. such as brood breaks etc.
 
Someone questioned hygienic behavior and why it is valuable. I can answer that.

I'm aware of all this FP. I think the request was for a much deeper explanation of hygienic behaviour and I wasn't going to get into a justification of decades of other peoples work. If they want that, they can do the paper-chase and read the original articles. It also seems that no matter how much evidence is provided some people will still argue with the result. Well, I've had enough of these silly games. I know what I am doing. If others want to do something else, they should stop belly-aching and do it.
 
What's causing the confusion where I am concerned is the apparent connecting of two different traits and the relevant mite population the colony can tolerate sustainably.

Mite tolerance is one trait and hygienic behaviour is another.

Both together are obviously desirable but the later is more so, it appears to me.

Or am I missing something, again?
 
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Honey is not the bee all and end all in mine, but that does not mean I cant learn from you.

My goal is to get 150 kg honey from hive. I do not need anybody's sympathy or advices in that. I just arrange things so that it is possible. What then happens, like weather conditions, it is not in my hands..

That 150 kg in my conditions is a challenge. It is bigger challenge than to buy VHS queens. In the year 1970 i dreamed about average yield 100 kg/hive. That I have achieved many times.

But to give up my goals, and hunt the wind, it is not my life. It is somebody other's job.

I surely buy mite tolerant and what ever tolerant queens, if they really exist, but I do not give up from my honey production goals.

So far I am fond of buckfasts, what I bought from 1500 hive owner.
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I am coming to the conclusion that this forum is just like a primary school playground. All people seem to want to do is to knock something down. I don't hear of anyone else out there doing anything constructive so I'll just keep it to myself from now on. I've had enough. You get the science you deserve...keep talking about your matchsticks

I've come to the same conclusion, very rarely post anything now.

Can't be arsed !
 
What's causing the confusion where I am concerned is the apparent connecting of two different traits and the relevant mite population the colony can tolerate sustainably.

Mite tolerance is one trait and hygienic behaviour is another.

Both together are obviously desirable but the later is more so, it appears to me.

Or am I missing something, again?

Read this (using google chrome will do some of the translation for you) http://www.toleranzzucht.de/zuchtprogramm/vsh-untersuchung/

This explains pretty well the VSH testing http://www.toleranzzucht.de/fileadmin/websitedateien/pdf/Buechler_VSH_Praxis_kn.pdf but its in German
 
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I've come to the same conclusion, very rarely post anything now.

Can't be arsed !

I'm fed up with spoon feeding information when people can't be bothered to do the simplest thing for themselves.
Most of the information I get is in German or Dutch so I use Google Chrome (and a lot of common sense) to understand what is being discussed. I post my photos here http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751 so people can see some of my work.
Its no wonder that this countrys beekeeping is so far behind
 
I'm fed up with spoon feeding information when people can't be bothered to do the simplest thing for themselves.
Its no wonder that this countrys beekeeping is so far behind

Fear of the unknown, inertia and a lack of understanding all play a part here.
 
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Beekeeping in Britain is very complicated.

The most important beekeeping book is law book.
The Irish are lawyers in British beekeeping. The Welsh catch different thinkers.
The Scotch serve as weather station. What they use to say is "different" . Weather is different....always different.
 
I'm trying to change that...stir things up a bit. Its time things changed.

I appreciate where you are coming from. you have to analyse a trait to see if it is an improvement, and to do that best you need to try to avoid canging all the other variables or account for any that do change. It all has to be very methodical and meticulously controlled or it is a waste of time and means nothing.
At the same time you need to keep an eye on the bigger picture as we have seen with dog breeding, because persistent selection for one trait can destroy the breed line. We need to assess "improvements" as you are doing to make sure we haven't made something else worse. Genes never work in isolation.
Most bee keepers either can't do what you are doing or won't sacrifice the time to do it. The issue with forums is the protective veil of the Internet makes people less polite or questions get phrased badly so as to appear rude. You meet many more trolls on the Internet than in real life.
Single line comments also appear completely out of context. I for one find what you are trying to do far more interesting than maximising honey crop but if I was commercial my view point would be completely different.
I hope you continue to post here and are able to ignore questions that sound like criticism.
 
I've come to the same conclusion, very rarely post anything now.

Can't be arsed !

There members here who should be ignored, however there are so many 'new comers' who read all the replies who must be sometimes more confused than when the started!

I hope for the sake of the decent members here on the forum that both yourself and B+ keep up your good work.
 

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