VSH Carnica

[Finman]

Intelligent people usually agree that no question is stupid.

Intelligentzia is not among my many virtues.

 

[Finman]

Intelligent people usually agree that no question is stupid.

I was beginning to respect your opinions but your belligerent and provocative responses are really very wearing.

Do try and restrain yourself.

Restrain... Be brave. We have 2000 km between us.

I have a education of biological researcher. I hate people who think that every question is clever.

When you ask " could you throw a number" , was it clever. You knew it yourself.

 

[Motobiman]

I have a education of biological researcher. I hate people who think that every question is clever.

When you ask " could you throw a number" , it was not not clever. You knew it yourself.[/UNQUOTE]

What are you talking about?

I never said anything about 'could you throw a number' and I have no idea what that refers to.

What I said was, it if it is obvious that mite numbers in resistant and tolerate hives are naturally different then it appears counting mites is a poor way of starting any research.

You said it was quasi-science and it would seem you are right.

We agree and I have hives to manage.

 

[Finman]

What I said was, it if it is obvious that mite numbers in resistant and tolerate hives are naturally different.

They are different even in usual hives.

There are methods how number of mites are counted.
Mite researching has been standardizised about 10 years ago..

And like it has been said, even tolerate hives die for varroa. But it happens slower than in usual hives.

.

 

[Fusion_power]

even tolerate hives die for varroa. But it happens slower than in usual hives.

This is incorrect. My current bees do not die from varroa. They may die from queen failure but otherwise, I have queens routinely heading colonies 3 or even 4 years. Bees selected for a single varroa tolerance trait such as VSH will die from varroa, but I do not rely on single traits. Neither will any bee breeding program that hopes to produce a highly varroa tolerant bee.

Documented research has shown that varroa tolerance can come from several different traits of which VSH is one. My experience is that VSH is part of the equation needed to have fully mite tolerant bees. It is a trait that can be carried to extremes. When taken too far, it rapidly becomes a liability. I've seen colonies of VSH bees chew out so much brood that they never build up above 3 or 4 frames of bees.

Allogrooming and mite mauling are IMO much more valuable as varroa tolerance mechanisms, but also much harder to fix in a population. Once you see a colony of groomers in action, you will see why mites in such colonies never reach the economic damage threshold.

The negative traits my bees express can be summed up as a very strong tendency to swarm. My current goal is to get swarming under control, either by management or by genetics or both. They are gentle and easy to work for the most part. They can produce a very good crop of honey. Their swarming tendency makes them difficult to manage profitably. Don't presume that I let them swarm, on the contrary, I take measures to keep them from swarming, but this consumes time and effort that could be better used.

I'd be interested in hearing how many colonies B+ currently is managing and what he feels is the source of their long term survival.

 

[B+.]

What I said was, it if it is obvious that mite numbers in resistant and tolerate hives are naturally different then it appears counting mites is a poor way of starting any research.

Not so. It is a very useful pre-selection tool.

I count mites on a sticky insert in the floor each spring to provide an initial assessment (or starting point) for the infestation.
In the first week of July I take a second sample (actually I did two this year at Prof Brascamps request). This is frozen to kill the bees then mites are washed off using soapy water and counted. This gives me a second point
A simple quotient is enough to illustrate how well the bees have managed the pest.

The pinprick test should be performed on 10 day old pupae with a #2 entemology pin (at least twice during May & June). By killing the pupae in a 10*10 trapezoid, you are able to assess the tendency of the bees to detect and remove dead bees. This is a proxy for disease and is only an indicator of which colonies are worth investigating further.

 

[B+.]

I'd be interested in hearing how many colonies B+ currently is managing and what he feels is the source of their long term survival.

Like most beekeepers, the number of colonies I manage goes up and down throughout the season. I say on my profile 70+ and that is a pretty good guide.

I have over 30 daughters of 6-1-1037-2015 along with other groups of daughters which I regard as worth breeding from. I also have older test colonies (pure island mated carnica) which I am keeping for one reason or another.

As far as 2016 test colonies goes, I have the following:

VSH Line (Island mated on Vlieland)
55-2-70-2016 = 55-2-36-2016 * 18-26-7268-2013
55-2-73-2016 = 55-2-38-2016 * 18-26-7268-2013
55-2-77-2016 = 55-2-40-2016 * 18-26-7268-2013

NL Line (Instrumentally Inseminated)
55-9-90-2016 = 55-3-44-2014 * 18-26-7268-2013
55-9-89-2016 = 55-3-44-2014 * 18-26-7268-2013

I.B. Celle Line (Island mated on Neuwerk)
6-1-585-2016 = 6-1-1986-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012 Line A1-013
6-1-608-2016 = 6-1-1986-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012
6-1-628-2016 = 6-1-1986-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012

6-1-640-2016 = 6-1-0381-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012 Line A2-001
6-1-645-2016 = 6-1-0381-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012
6-1-649-2016 = 6-1-0381-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012
6-1-773-2016 = 6-1-0381-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012

6-1-703-2016 = 6-1-1915-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012 Line A3-066
6-1-727-2016 = 6-1-1915-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012
6-1-734-2016 = 6-1-1915-2014 * 6-1-0563-2012

all of these are pure carniolans and could be considered "breeder queens" in their own right without further testing. In BeeBreed, we only breed from those which perform better than the mean for that family group though so it is important to test full-sibs in different conditions.

Their long term survival stems from the fact that I can select the best performing stock that I have and mate/inseminate it with semen from the best performing stock in the breeding population (many thousands of queens are tested each year). I am not working alone.

 

[Truble]

I assumed you had read the obvious sources and was trying to build on them by showing recent work on selection
]

I'd like to think I have read them some of them but one can never be too sure about this. I'm not totally convinced of the linkage Boecking and Spivak (I think) presumed from their experiments. They seemed to find a maximum of 30% removal of their manually infect varroa cells, but recorded a maximum of 80% removal from their pin prick kills. They claim the two traits are linked but it was beyond me to understand how they assumed this from 2 unrelated experiments. And as Fusion_Power has written you don't wish to breed too much hygienic larval removal into your bees.
The other paper I read by Spivak and Reuter, 1998 showed that hygienic bees carried less varroa than non hygienic bees but still needed treatment to avoid colony collapse. Not a good paper to quote for useage of hygenic bees. Interestingly they used hygienic bees derived from Italian stock and used Starline bees as a non hygienic control, which seems very odd. Surely they should have used non hygienic bees derived from the same stock for a more valid comparison?

It simply seems to me that a lot of emphasis is put on breeding hygienic bees based on relatively (to me at least) flimsy evidence that this correlates with varroa tolerance/removal etc. The last reference you kindly gave me quoted both these papers as the evidence for the selection of hygienic bees. Perhaps I haven't read the definitive papers that prove this beyond a doubt, or I haven't got a clue what I'm prattling on about. The later is more likely.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

have difficulty reconciling what has been observed to happen with any correlation with hygienic behaviour. Have your bees been tested for the non symptom form of dwv? .

No.
IMO that is a complete red herring

And a lot of people would say that it's the other way around and that Hygienic behaviour that's the red herring.

 

[Truble]

And a lot of people would say that it's the other way around and that Hygienic behaviour that's the red herring.

I think you managed to say it much more concisely than me. Well done!

 

[Motobiman]

Not so. It is a very useful pre-selection tool.

What I don't understand is how you get to that conclusion.

Surely, is mite tolerance not being able to exist with an above average mite infestation that would result in decline and death of an intolerant colony?

And Hygienic behaviour is the ability to detect and kill mites to a greater degree than the average colony?

So using the same mite infestation percentage level as a start point indicator on two colonies displaying the two different natural traits would skew the results.

Get the start points wrong and all the points are wrong.

Would it not?

 

[chrisb]

That is biggest nonsense what a beekeepers can write.
Zero score from me.

Get a rich wife. I would sacrifice my life to that. I the rest of my life
.

Not rubbish in the slightest, in everything there has to be some give and take

going out finding a rich wife is a way to cover what you would lack with a good woman who you rely want to be with ( happiness )
you can not buy happiness you can only spend to cover up the fact it is missing

 

[colinc]

What I don't understand is how you get to that conclusion.

Surely, is mite tolerance not being able to exist with an above average mite infestation that would result in decline and death of an intolerant colony?

And Hygienic behaviour is the ability to detect and kill mites to a greater degree than the average colony?

So using the same mite infestation percentage level as a start point indicator on two colonies displaying the two different natural traits would skew the results.

Get the start points wrong and all the points are wrong.

Would it not?

It does give you a baseline for that colony but cannot be used directly against other unrelated colonies. Only useful for the individual colony fluctuations. You can then measure for % change in counts and compare with other colonies.

 

[Motobiman]

It does give you a baseline for that colony but cannot be used directly against other unrelated colonies. Only useful for the individual colony fluctuations. You can then measure for % change in counts and compare with other colonies.

Exactamon mon peti frufru.

 

[foghornleghorn]

And a lot of people would say that it's the other way around and that Hygienic behaviour that's the red herring.

How are hygienic traits a red herring? Never having to worry about foulbrood is definitely a plus even if it has no effect on varroa

 

[B+.]

I am coming to the conclusion that this forum is just like a primary school playground. All people seem to want to do is to knock something down. I don't hear of anyone else out there doing anything constructive so I'll just keep it to myself from now on. I've had enough. You get the science you deserve...keep talking about your matchsticks

 

[Truble]

I don't hear of anyone else out there doing anything constructive

Quite right, hats doffed, you are actually doing something positive and are involved in a serious bee breeding program. Well done, wish there were more beekeepers doing similar things in this country and taking the breeding more seriously.
But, if I may be so bold, there is a certain amount of skepticism about hygienic behavior and varroa tolerance based on the results from other bees that survive with varroa and don't show any hygienic traits. I would try and make certain that you can easily rebuff any criticism aimed at the hygienic behavior breeding. I say this is, because an awful lot of work is going on to breed hygienic bees and I'm not sure there is enough evidence (from what I've read) to suggest this is the correct approach. I'm probably wrong, I often am and have probably missed key papers or not had access to them. But when I find things don't add up for me then I question them, as I have done with you on this thread. People need convincing this IS the way forward, it's up to you to show us it is.
So show us.

 

[B+.]

People need convincing this IS the way forward, it's up to you to show us it is.
So show us.

Thats exactly my point. It isn't up to me. People should get off their fat arse and do some work for themselves. Thats what I did because it is something I felt I had to do. I don't have all the answers. I am learning new things all the time and continually have to check my understanding is correct.
I don't think it is right (or polite) to criticise the work of people who were first in their field. They may not get it completely right, but, they are the innovators on which we all depend, and their work is improved by those that follow....but they are followers, not leaders!
I am very lucky to have a genetics prof at the end of a skype call or email. He has been very patient with my naive views and explained some very advanced concepts to me that are completely out of my field. I have tried to pass that knowledge on but I am not the expert. I am, as the saying goes, "standing on the backs of giants"!.
We are light years behind the things I see/hear of yet people here are content in their own little world with the drawbridge firmly pulled up from the rest of Europe. Well, I have news for you all. We are not leaders anymore. We are followers....and a long way behind at that! Wake up people!

 

[Finman]

And what an ordinary beekeeper can do in VHS , ... nothing

But I can see, that producing honey is not favorite thing in this forum.

 

[Motobiman]

I am coming to the conclusion that this forum is just like a primary school playground. All people seem to want to do is to knock something down. I don't hear of anyone else out there doing anything constructive so I'll just keep it to myself from now on. I've had enough. You get the science you deserve...keep talking about your matchsticks

Oh don't do that, us armchair experts have to have someone to set us straight.

I'm still trying to get my head around lots of this stuff and my bees clearly don't have wifi cos they just ignore all the rules and do their own thing most of the time.

IMHO the research you guys are doing is essential and one day we will know everything about everything and then of course Mother Nature will have invented some new quandaries for us to worry about.