VSH Carnica

[B+.]

I posted an entry in the "What did you do in the apiary today" thread, but, it is probably more appropriate to post something like this here.

I received 3 of the Arista Bee Research VSH carnica this afternoon (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3761). They will be tested further next year and, if warranted, included in my breeding work in future.
The 2 Netherlands-line queens I received a week ago (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3754) were mated with drones from the same 4a queen (18-26-7268-2013) so it will be interesting to see if VSH is expressed in this line too.

More on this as work progresses.

 

[Truble]

B+ why is hygienic behavior seen as the way forward for varroa tolerance?
In the varroa tolerant "let alone bees" at Gotland, Avignon etc the reasons for their tolerance to varroa have not involved hygienic behavior.
Would it not make more sense to select from populations of bees that can naturally tolerate varroa and incorporate those traits into a breeding program?

 

[Finman]

.
Yes but somehow Gotland's population inhibits the reproduktion of mites.

Bee genetics needs boath features. It is not either or. It is boath.

But remember Gotland's genepools origin. 18 years ago it was brought 150 colonies there, which were already more or less tolerant to mites.

And remember the Mercury Isle breeding in NZ.. Mite tolerant breeds were imported from Germany to NZ. The operation collapsed because they did not actually had mite tolerant hives.

It is not easy, far from that.

 

[Truble]

.
Yes but somehow Gotland's population inhibits the reproduktion of mites.

Bee genetics needs boath features. It is not either or. It is boath.
.

It doesn't really matter about their origins as long as they can tolerate varroa and thrive. Whatever they have that inhibits the mites reproduction should be identified if possible and incorporated into a breeding program.
From what I read about the Avignon tolerant bees they paid a high price energetically for their tolerance, meaning they weren't very good at bringing home the honey, which wouldn't appeal to many beekeepers.

 

[B+.]

B+ why is hygienic behavior seen as the way forward for varroa tolerance?
In the varroa tolerant "let alone bees" at Gotland, Avignon etc the reasons for their tolerance to varroa have not involved hygienic behavior.
Would it not make more sense to select from populations of bees that can naturally tolerate varroa and incorporate those traits into a breeding program?

Hygienic behaviour depends on the bees own behaviour to limit the growth of the varroa infestation rather than on chemical treatments. As we have seen with some chemicals, residues may be left in the wax or the mites may develop resistence in only a few generations of exposure.
Most people would agree that they would rather not have wax or food tainted with chemical treatments. Some treatments, of course, do not taint the wax/honey but require monitoring to determine an intervention point when the threshold is reached or can only be applied during broodless periods. As we saw last winter some colonies had no broodless period at all and people found it difficult to know when to treat their bees. Wouldn't it be better if the bees did all this themselves?
As I have previously stated, the last time I treated my bees was in the mid 90's so it is certainly possible to develop bees that thrive without treatment. However, I lost a lot of good queens along the way. I am now at the point where I have gone about as far as I can go alone and have to co-operate with others to make further improvements. I joined the BeeBreed group in the Netherlands working under the supervision of Prof. E.W. Brascamp (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3734). For those interested in reading more about this, I would refer you to https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265859436_Methods_to_estimate_breeding_values_in_honey_bees). The BeeBreed approach is to examine a portfolio of traits (not just varroa tolerance) and to work towards improvement in all of them based on breeding values. A few people have visited my test apiary and seen for themselves how gentle and productive my bees are (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744).

 

[Truble]

Thanks for such a detailed reply. I'm still puzzled as to the connection between hygienic behaviour and varroa tolerance.
The Swindon bees where thought to be hygienic but it turned out to be dominant non symptom forming variety of dwv. Is there positive evidence that there is a correlation? All I've read suggest other varroa tolerant bees have not shown hygienic behaviour. I'm probably hopelessly wrong but have difficulty reconciling what has been observed to happen with any correlation with hygienic behaviour. Have your bees been tested for the non symptom form of dwv? Apologies for the questions but to my limited understanding it doesn't add up.

 

[B+.]

Is there positive evidence that there is a correlation?

The most recent paper I have seen is this (February 2016) https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_swarming_behaviour_in_Austrian_honey_bees which looks at a range of traits.

I have to stress though, that those who have pursued varroa tolerance in the past have generally lost other desirable characteristics along the way because they focused only on that one trait. It is important that we maintain / improve the whole range of traits, not just varroa tolerance. That is why we have to adopt a portfolio approach.

 

[chrisb]

I know I am going to cop it for saying this " but "
I would sacrifice a % of honey production for an increase in gentle nature and better resistance to pests, to me it makes a simple balance.

 

[B+.]

I would sacrifice a % of honey production for an increase in gentle nature and better resistance to pests, to me it makes a simple balance.

I think a lot of people would ChrisB.
In any case, this is all work for the future. I have just received the bees and have not tested them myself yet.
Lets see how the tests go first.

 

[Finman]

It doesn't really matter about their origins as long as they can tolerate varroa and thrive..

You have much experience about beekeeping... Do you....

You cannot keep what ever bugs. Varroa is not the main thing in beekeeping.

But best what varroa did in Finland is that it killed all Black Bees. Life with varroa is much more easier than with black Bees. There are sides in things.
.

 

[Finman]

I know I am going to cop it for saying this " but "
I would sacrifice a % of honey production for an increase in gentle nature and better resistance to pests, to me it makes a simple balance.

That is biggest nonsense what a beekeepers can write.
Zero score from me.

Get a rich wife. I would sacrifice my life to that. I the rest of my life
.

 

[B+.]

Have your bees been tested for the non symptom form of dwv?

No.
IMO that is a complete red herring

 

[Truble]

The most recent paper I have seen is this (February 2016) https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_swarming_behaviour_in_Austrian_honey_bees which looks at a range of traits.

I must be stupid but I can't find anything on this paper that links varroa tolerance with hygienic behavior. It seems to say it is faster to pursue improvement in one trait than pursuing several together.

 

[Finman]

I must be stupid but I can't find anything on this paper that links varroa tolerance with hygienic behavior. It seems to say it is faster to pursue improvement in one trait than pursuing several together.

You are right. Hygienic behaviour have connect to many such things, where it does not belong.

For example British university breeds such bees, which can quickly abort sick chalkbrood larvae.

But there are bees which are immune to chalkbroodq. Such VHS bees are vain in that disease..

And again... British beekeepers do bot understand that with changing genepool they can avoid EFB.

And genetic resistance against nosema... Who cares. Denmark has executed... But but
But but and but...
.

 

[Motobiman]

I must be stupid but I can't find anything on this paper that links varroa tolerance with hygienic behavior. It seems to say it is faster to pursue improvement in one trait than pursuing several together.

Interesting thought outside the box, respect.

It would seem obvious the number of mites in a tolerant colony would be higher than in a hygienic colony but both could be viable but not stable at that moment.

Does that throw simple mite number counting as a starting point in any study into doubt?

 

[B+.]

I can't find anything on this paper that links varroa tolerance with hygienic behavior.

I assumed you had read the obvious sources and was trying to build on them by showing recent work on selection

Here is a primer with references http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/3/3/4

This is where the queens came from https://aristabeeresearch.org/

 

[Finman]

Interesting thought outside the box, respect.

It would seem obvious the number of mites in a tolerant colony would be higher than in a hygienic colony but both could be viable but not stable at that moment.

Does that throw simple mite number counting as a starting point in any study into doubt?

Throwing mite numbers is kvasi science. Nothing serious.
We have that knowledge enough in this forum.

When Africanized bees have been researched in USA, they have found amanzingly big differencies in mite numbers.


.

 

[Motobiman]

Throwing mite numbers is kvasi science. Nothing serious.
We have that knowledge enough in this forum.

When Africanized bees have been researched in USA, they have found amanzingly big differencies in mite numbers.


.

So the simple answer to the question is, yes.

 

[Finman]

Interesting thought outside the box, respect.

It would seem obvious the number of mites in a tolerant colony would be higher than in a hygienic colony but both could be viable but not stable at that moment.

Does that throw simple mite number counting as a starting point in any study into doubt?

So the simple answer to the question is, yes.

What yes ????

The question was stupid. Yes is very good answer to get ridd from that.

 

[Motobiman]

What yes ????

The question was stupid. Yes is very good answer to get ridd from that.

Intelligent people usually agree that no question is stupid.

I was beginning to respect your opinions but your belligerent and provocative responses are really very wearing.

Do try and restrain yourself.