Varroa natural mite drop

[Heather]

I do wish that ALL beekeepers had a minimum of 2 hives... I sometimes get calls from frantic people with a queenless colony and I have to be the one to trog over with a frame of brood.. which I sometimes am reluctant to lose..

Latest... one colony.. refused to buy a queen, he was Langsroth, me National... so I had to cut out a wedge of brood and graft into his frame...How do you tell an elderly beekeeper of 60 years experience 'NO'
Please 2 hives minimum...for all our sakes.

 

[Finman]

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I wonder, what is the idea of Oliwer to write that huge legend, to whom and why. And after these years. I have quite good understanding about Brittish two hive owners. Everything is all right, but results miserable and cost 2-3 fold to Finland or Sweden. colonies are amazingly small, which makes nursing less lucky.

What I have written here, it is universal knowledge about varroa. It has nothing to do with Finland.

Chrish B has no value in discussions about varroa. Their idea "do nothing", helps nothing. One professional guy kept Frech Kefys bees here. He said that there were no mites but their were impossible to nurse. He killed all 10 hives.

And not your attitude either Olivermake things better.
I just wrote how mite multiply itself. What was wrong in that.
You are every time irritated about that shedule.

We have discussed about these things 7 years and what we have in hands? 2 stubborn persons who poke each others withou any reason. I even not read your letters. I know what they have.

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[mbc]

Question is not about tolerance. I have corrected their false information and they try to take revenge on me.

Varroa douples itself in one month[/B]

I have no interest in "revenge" whatsoever, you have not corrected any false information and in my experience, the vast majority of varroa populations in hives I've revisited in a month have nowhere near doubled. That "schedule" you copied and pasted is a worst case scenario which seldom correlates to what happens in the hives here, there are areas where the majority of the beekeepers are treatment free, their bees survive and aren't overrun with varroa, its true I've seen it with my own eyes, roll on this becoming more commonplace.
The problem with wrestling with pigs is that you both get mucky, but the pig likes it.

 

[Finman]

in my experience, the vast majority of varroa populations in hives

xxxxx question is not about your personal experince but about general rule of thump

Nanetti uses in his papers "douples in month". Our varroa researcher Seppo Korpela said that according German researches mite douples itself in every 4 weks.

Biggest thing in growth of mites depends how many brooding months a country has. We have sometimes 4 and sometimes 6. You have there 9 months or what?.

Amount of dronebrood rules too, how much mites grow in one brood cell. dronepupa produces 11 adult mites. Worker pupa gives much less.
Naturall comb hives are in bigger danger because amount of dronecells is big.


Copy paste my schedule? ...it is from nowhere...

You just write a number and write then next 2 multiplied

100 ....200.....400....800

 

[pargyle]

Finman,

You yave brought the wrath of the forum down on your head because you are so adamant that varroa is always going to kill the colony in the next few weeks and you must use 3.2% oxalic acid every winter and all beekeepers are two hive owners ... and so it goes on.. At last some are seeing through your methods as purely commercial, and that given lots of good healthy bees going into winter is enough to ensure a good healthy colony in the spring - maybe with some varroa, but certainly not a dead-out as your posts appear to warn. I know exactly what you mean; oxalic allows you to not treat again for some time, even until the autumn, after harvest. But your posts do not take into account the hobby nature of the many beekeepers on this forum with just a couple of hives. Those of us with more than twenty or so colonies can easily afford to test out the alternative treatment regimes and I, for one, have repeatedly reported minimal winter losses without winter oxalic treatment - much to your chagrin.

The current situation may not be as good as it appears from the posts here, but it may demonstrate that the situation for the likes of Chis Luck and others in France is not all outlandish lies and mis-information.

In a lot of cases the varroa will likely bite back. I, too, have seen less varroa than in previous years but I will be sorting out some of the little critters to ensure healthy winter bees as far as I can. That may or may not be a full four weeks or more of thymol vapour in the hive; we shall see.

I most certainly do not and have never suggested that a single natural mite drop is the only evidence required to assess the varroa loading. It is an indication and if a high drop is found then likely the loading is high. Many do not notice the other evidence of varroa numbers throughout the season or do not connect the earlier assessments with the likely varroa population some months later.

However, both this and last year have shown much reduced varroa infestation and this may be (like Chis in France) down to fewer inspections at critical times - yes, I have noted the large number of unexpected swarmed colonies reported on the forum; an indication of missed inspections. I most certainly left my colonies alone earlier in the season because they were so late in developing.

Because of that, I will likely leave them with loads of winter honey as I do not need the crop, particularly as some will be OSR and will cause blown frames if extracted. I know I can sort that little problem next spring if it arises; some would not and some want to collect their first crop in two seasons!

Your winter season is long and brooding will be curtailed far longer than in the UK where, on occasions, brooding may not stop throughout the short winter season. The mite problem starts to multiply far earlier in the UK, than for your bees, and has a longer season to get to critical numbers. Yours are different - no increase until late April/early May and perhaps only five months at most for the little horrors to double each month.

A somewhat different scenario to the UK where doubling can start in February, or earlier, and continue throughout the rest of the season, unless a treatment is given. I can see this even if the new beeks and many others are oblivious to these real differences.

The simple fact is that there is a reduced varroa problem this year, but that is likely an average and will catch out some or even a lot. All I am interested in is having healthy bees going into the winter. I know then, that as the varroa loadings are low, they will survive the winter without losses due to varroa or oxalic acid trickling. Simple isn't it?

But, never mind, you getting a drubbing maybe keeps some off my back for a few days. They say there is always a silver lining to every cloud. Happy days

RAB

Sensible post ... whilst my systemised (three fold) varroa monitoring has not indicated any mites (at present) I'm under no illusion that this may not be a situation that continues. My approach is one of constant vigilance and being ready to react before the situation becomes critical. I hope that I can remain treatment free but the odds are that it may not be possible in the longer term if the bees are to remain in an uninfested state. At that stage, as long as it is caught early, then treatment can be tailored to suit the level of infestation (IMO - I know there are going to be some who say '4 weeks, nothing less but I think RAB is right in his approach).

 

[Finman]

Sensible post nothing less but I think RAB is right in his approach).

Rab is right. I know it without reading his short stories.
If you have another opion, it does not promise good.
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[clv101]

The simple fact is that there is a reduced varroa problem this year...

This strikes me as a very important thing to understand. Why are so many people reporting low varroa levels this year? Understanding this would surely teach us something about varroa control in the future.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I do wish that ALL beekeepers had a minimum of 2 hives... I sometimes get calls from frantic people with a queenless colony and I have to be the one to trog over with a frame of brood.. which I sometimes am reluctant to lose..

Latest... one colony.. refused to buy a queen, he was Langsroth, me National... so I had to cut out a wedge of brood and graft into his frame...How do you tell an elderly beekeeper of 60 years experience 'NO'
Please 2 hives minimum...for all our sakes.

How do you keep down to two? My one hive became four within 3 months

 

[greengumbo]

This strikes me as a very important thing to understand. Why are so many people reporting low varroa levels this year? Understanding this would surely teach us something about varroa control in the future.

Longer than usual winter. Late brood development or plenty brood gaps in "spring" = later and lower Varroa increase.

In regards to Finman "dronepupa produce 11 adult mites" is not the case in reality. I'm not sure what the doubling rate is but I'm sure that researcher you quote knows there stuff. Maybe 4 weeks in absolute best controlled conditions but not in reality.

Rosenkranz (2010) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19909970) does a fantastic review on Varroa that should interest everyone. In it this summary of research into reproductive rate of Varroa:

"It is difficult to measure the real reproductive rate (=number of viable adult offspring per mother mite), which among other things depends on mite fertility (reproduction, yes or no) and fecundity (=number of offspring per reproductive cycle) under natural conditions. Martin, 1994 and Martin, 1995b calculated the reproduction rate of 1.3–1.45 in single infested worker brood and, due to the longer capping period, 2.2–2.6 in drone brood. During her life time a Varroa female can perform up to 7 reproductive cycles under laboratory conditions (De Ruijter, 1987); under field conditions an average number between two and three reproductive cycles can be expected ( Fries and Rosenkranz, 1996 and Martin and Kemp, 1997)."

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

This strikes me as a very important thing to understand. Why are so many people reporting low varroa levels this year? Understanding this would surely teach us something about varroa control in the future.

+1

 

[Fraise]

I posted a comment near the beginning of this thread as information about the lack of varoa drop I have observed. I thought sharing this information was important so other beeks could build up a picture of what is happening in different parts of the country.
I did not expect WW3 to break out again over treatments.
The recording of this information may be of use in the future e.g. it could be found that varoa reproduction is particularly low after a late spring and many winter losses.
Should we have a poll of peoples varoa mite drop to record the information?

 

[Finman]

. Maybe 4 weeks in absolute best controlled conditions but not in reality.

And your postion in European varroa researching is.....



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[Finman]

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40 000 bees fill 2 langstroth boxes.


Essential in this picture is that a maximal amount of mites violate quite small winter bee gang.

And the last emerged winter bees look like mite porriage.

I had a hive, which propably robbeb in August a weakened wild hive. And it got a good load of varroa from there.

In a month 5 box hive collapsed so that out of 8 brood frames, the hive got only 2 frames of bees.

That phenomenom was usual in NZ when varroa weeped wild colonies off in one summer and nursed hives got sudden varroa loads from several wild hives.

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[Vramin]

My strongest colony, on double brood, was treated with MAQS 14 days ago. Counted 5255 mites so far. 2000 in first 3 days, then approx 400/day for next 5 days, 250/day for next 5 days, and 95 yesterday.

I am shocked, to say the least! Daily drop before treatment 50. The colony showed no signs of virus or any other trouble. Bias on 15 frames a few weeks ago. Loads of honey. People who know say the bees are pretty black, and calm as could be. Colony created in May from queenless artificial swarm, so only one frame of brood at that time, plus the flying bees, and new queen introduced 2 weeks later. (Last year they were treated with Apiguard in sept and Oxalic in jan).

The other 4 hives dropped between 200-400 during the same period.

I intend to treat each year regardless of mite drop count. I think MAQS is the way to go, as it allows treatment during the nectar flow which is late in my part of Wales, and which my bees tolerated far better than Apiguard last year.

 

[greengumbo]

.

40 000 bees fill 2 langstroth boxes.


Essential in this picture is that a maximal amount of mites violate quite small winter bee gang.

And the last emerged winter bees look like mite porriage.

I had a hive, which propably robbeb in August a weakened wild hive. And it got a good load of varroa from there.

In a month 5 box hive collapsed so that out of 8 brood frames, the hive got only 2 frames of bees.

That phenomenom was usual in NZ when varroa weeped wild colonies off in one summer and nursed hives got sudden varroa loads from several wild hives.

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I was not having a go Finman. Looks like they can double or more in 4 weeks in some bad instances - maybe when multiple Varroa enter each cell to be capped. Nanetti has done some great work. I was taking issue with 11 mites emerging from a drone cell. Maybe if 4 adult mites crawled in in the first place then that would happen. Rosenkranz was on the same working group as Nanetti and his review is excellent but only quotes 2.2 -2.6 viable adults exiting drone cells.

 

[pargyle]

I did not expect WW3 to break out again over treatments.
QUOTE]

Par for the course really .... there are a few words which are always destined to provoke a bit of a ding dong - Treatment, Varroa, Natural, Matchsticks etc. ... perhaps we should have a banned word list !!!

 

[Finman]

You forgot one = pargyle and 1 hive owner

Your all posts follow the same quality path

 

[pargyle]

My strongest colony, on double brood, was treated with MAQS 14 days ago. Counted 5255 mites so far. 2000 in first 3 days, then approx 400/day for next 5 days, 250/day for next 5 days, and 95 yesterday.

I am shocked, to say the least! Daily drop before treatment 50. The colony showed no signs of virus or any other trouble. Bias on 15 frames a few weeks ago. Loads of honey. People who know say the bees are pretty black, and calm as could be. Colony created in May from queenless artificial swarm, so only one frame of brood at that time, plus the flying bees, and new queen introduced 2 weeks later. (Last year they were treated with Apiguard in sept and Oxalic in jan).

The other 4 hives dropped between 200-400 during the same period.

I intend to treat each year regardless of mite drop count. I think MAQS is the way to go, as it allows treatment during the nectar flow which is late in my part of Wales, and which my bees tolerated far better than Apiguard last year.

Daily drop of 50 mites - FERA Varroa calculator gives at least 2000 mites in the colony and a 'treat as soon as possible' warning. Just goes to show that you can't totally rely on a drop count ... mind you, with 50 a day drop it might have been worth a bit more investigation - seems like a lot to me ?

 

[pargyle]

You forgot one = pargyle and 1 hive owner

Your all posts follow the same quality path

Why don't you just hit my Ignore button Finman - save the wear on the end of your thumbs ...

 

[Heather]

Oh SHUT UP you silly people. Just do bees or buzz off