varroa floors

[beesknee]

Hi every one,I have put my tin hat on before I post this thread,
I have kept bees for a long time (approx 40 years)am still not convinced varroa floors are the best thing since sliced bread, my reasons? all the pollen losses, which have taken the bees time and energy to collect,all the bees legs which i find on the incert tray, the amount of bees lost by clustering under the floor,when I kept bees on solid floors,(before and since varroa I did not loose more colonies than I do now on varroa floors) they wintered just as well on solid as on varroa.Please feel free to shoot me down.

 

[enrico]

Horses for courses. If solid floors work for you with less losses then why don't you use them!

 

[steve's bees]

Hi every one,I have put my tin hat on before I post this thread,
I have kept bees for a long time (approx 40 years)am still not convinced varroa floors are the best thing since sliced bread, my reasons? all the pollen losses, which have taken the bees time and energy to collect,all the bees legs which i find on the incert tray, the amount of bees lost by clustering under the floor,when I kept bees on solid floors,(before and since varroa I did not loose more colonies than I do now on varroa floors) they wintered just as well on solid as on varroa.Please feel free to shoot me down.

Ive got a good idea for you! Go and have a couple more whisky's and the tomorrow you can dig the solid floors out of the shed and we will change them over and then you could kindly give me the varroa floors.

 

[Skyhook]

In my first year, I changed my first hive from solid to OMF, and was relieved that I had when it revealed a heavy mite infestation. I have now realised that mites can be assumed, and that monitoring is not the be all and end all.

Mites falling through the mesh is supposed to be a major benefit, but given how little of the population is phoretic, I wonder how big a benefit this is in reality.

In short, while I dont have anything against OMF's, I'm starting to wonder if they're quite the esssential we are led to believe.

 

[oliver90owner]

I changed to OMFs (not 'varroa floors') due to the dampness in the hive over winter, or the apparent excessive through draughts if top ventilation was the requirement.

My mentor accepted damp and mould covered frames as normal and fobbed it off with 'the bees will clean them up'.

I didn't accept that and as I was new without too much kit to change, I looked at all the possibilities for alternatives at the time.

Problems were size of a brood box, the over-wintering problem, the hive format.

After considerable thought on the matter I decided to go top bee space (like Langstroths), retain my brood boxes but extend them to extra-deeps (brood nest shape was one consideration, as was one frame size and adequate winter stores in the one box), trial an OMF (the deeper box was a 'necessary' part of this at the time).

Never looked back. Bees over-wintered on the one box with dry combs and no apparent high losses of bees (not so many on the floors in spring). Didn't think about it at the time, but now accept that more winter stores are consumed (a marginal issue with more than enough stores available).

No problem of them building downwards (if an empty shallow were left under a deep box) in the spring. Hives were already heavily insulated over the crownboard as part of the changes I thought I needed to make).

Yes, I have occasionally used a solid floor over the winter since then, but now there is no top ventilation, adequate top insulation and the brood box is raised from the floor by about 3mm. I have found this to be a satisfactory alternative to the idea of matchsticks under the crownboard.

I do believe the John Harding floor to be a better alternative to the mesh floor but have not tried one to see. (other things have got in the way of that one).

I have found little problem of them clustering under the hive and doubt that pollen losses are really any greater than with solid floors (question arises as to whether dropped pollen is recovered or cleaned out as floor debris with a solid floor).

I don't need to spring clean my floors, so no build up of detritus in my colonies, and I dont honestly believe the colony losses over-winter are an issue - unless they get damp or have horrendous through draughts. My system has worked for me and I see no real reason for change. 14 x 12s are better, IMO, than deeps for over-wintering and spring build up - and I often allow her to lay further up in the hive, so no real 'cold issues' for me.

Hope that explains why I changed and that I am am quite happy with the very few winter losses, all of which have been entirely unrelated to the OMF, apart from one unexplained loss during the last five years or so, the others (very few - around five percent?) have had clear reasons for their demise.

RAB

 

[richardbees]

bees
I'm a new convert to varroa floors and do now prefer them; as there is never any doubt about sufficient ventilation and a small entrance can always be in place which obviates need for mouse guards and (mostly) wasp protection.

Putting the V. tray in place helps stop bees clustering underneath.....

richard

(However, during freezing nights in mid winter, I still put matchsticks in the corner of my glazed crown boards to prevent condensation drips!)

 

[oliver90owner]

However, during freezing nights in mid winter, I still put matchsticks in the corner of my glazed crown boards to prevent condensation drips!

Clearly not adequately insulated over the crownboard is my comment on that one. Simple enough to avoid without recourse to draughts (24/7), or continual interference from the beek - I leave my colonies alone from cluster to spring expansion, unless there were compelling reasons to check them out.

 

[richardbees]

RAB

Following suggestions last year I do now put moulded 3" thick blocks of loft insulation on top but there are still drops of condensation.....I've local customers/children who like to take a peek throughout the year (hence the glazed cover boards in the first place)

richard

 

[itma]

I wonder how much difference there is between different omf's - specifically regarding bees legs ...

Just done my first drop check on a swarm taken on July 2.
Zero varroa after 2 days, pretty much as expected.
BUT, there was one helluva lot of bees legs. More than I've previously seen. Lots more.

OP's comment about lost legs inspires me to raise it now.
That floor is the first I've used from CWJ. And the 'leg drop' is heavy.
Perhaps I should replace the mesh?
Anyone else noted anything like this? (difference between different floors)

 

[Finman]

Please feel free to shoot me down.

not now....i go to sleep....

 

[itma]

RAB

Following suggestions last year I do now put moulded 3" thick blocks of loft insulation on top but there are still drops of condensation.....I've local customers/children who like to take a peek throughout the year (hence the glazed cover boards in the first place)

richard

Two observations

1/ the insulation may be sitting (approximately) on the frame, rather than down onto the glazed part - leaving an airgap that isn't well sealed round the edges. Solution - trim away the insulation slightly round the edges, so it can 'sit tighter'.
2/ condensation away from the cluster isn't a great problem. Just as long as the cluster can warm the cover board directly above themselves enough to prevent condensation there, its OK.

 

[richardbees]

itma

your observation 1/ : that's exactly why I used the word "moulded" e.g I shaved the bits of insulation to fit perfectly but a drop of condensation still forms in the middle of whichever of the two glass panels is above the cluster. I really don't understand why there is such ridicule for my simple little solution?

Returning to issues raised by the OP - I think the pollen / bits of leg problems could be alleviated by having the OMF start a couple of inches back from the entrance. I noticed this is how the floor of a recent new wbc bought from Thrones is designed.

rich
(still sweltering here in Balham)

 

[itma]

... I really don't understand why there is such ridicule for my simple little solution? ...

If your matchsticks are 2mm tall, the gap you create (length 460 mm x 4 sides) is 3680 sq mm in area. That's equivalent to a 60 mm x 60 mm square vent hole. (60 mm is more than 2 and a third inches in old money.)
That's a big hole.
With an open floor at the bottom, your hole lets a LOT of heat out.

With solid floors, the condensation could be so bad the hives had to tilted towards the entrance so it could drain out. And the advice to reduce condensation was to raise the coverboard on matches.
The general idea here is that nowadays, with better insulated hives, we can do better.
But its not universally accepted ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

bees
(However, during freezing nights in mid winter, I still put matchsticks in the corner of my glazed crown boards to prevent condensation drips!)

RAB

Following suggestions last year I do now put moulded 3" thick blocks of loft insulation on top but there are still drops of condensationrichard

Try swapping the glazed boards for wooden during the winter - i've had one on all summer with no condensation - will be swapping it over for a plywood on after the flow stops and I bed down for winter/possibly treat for varroa (end of next month possibly)

 

[Finman]

.
Condensation happens onto coldest surfaces.
It is impossible that it happens on warmest surface. It is impossible.

If you think that loft insulation is a key to something, it is wrong. Hive has 5 other surfaces and insulating one means nothing.

Honeybee needs a warm shelter and not only warm loft.

Rab's roof is leaking...




.

 

[Into the lions den]

Firstly, open mesh floor long predate varroa and their main function was, and remains, climatic, as in the climate inside the hive is generally a bit better.

Pollen? Thats one with a counterintuitive answer that you possibly never noticed before. Pollen that ends up on the floor has fallen out of the domain of the gatherers and into the domain of the house cleaners and even though they might need it it is generally heaved out the door. Pretty well the only exception to this is honey/syrup spillage or particles of fondant, which they gather up and store back in the correct place.

Bees legs? Never noticed a serious problem with it. Maybe its a bit like the pollen, unitl you have an omf andf the house cleaners cannot tidy up what falls through you never notice all the detritus that drops out the bottom of a cluster and is removed by the bees and dropped away from the hive.

Bees lost under the floor? Yes it happens, but its rarely enough to be an issue. How you place the hives does have some influence on just how much of this happens. Try NOT to have access directly to the underside of the floor from the front of the hive. Dont look at ours btw, they just sit on pallets and a few bees DO go underneath never to return. Thats serious spider country in there. Pallets are cheap hive stands and are easy to move around. The few bees we lose because of that are relatively unimportant. If we were on permanent sites that issue would be worth paying attention to.

 

[Skyhook]

If your matchsticks are 2mm tall, the gap you create (length 460 mm x 4 sides) is 3680 sq mm in area. That's equivalent to a 60 mm x 60 mm square vent hole. (60 mm is more than 2 and a third inches in old money.)
That's a big hole.
With an open floor at the bottom, your hole lets a LOT of heat out.



With solid floors, the condensation could be so bad the hives had to tilted towards the entrance so it could drain out. And the advice to reduce condensation was to raise the coverboard on matches.
The general idea here is that nowadays, with better insulated hives, we can do better.
But its not universally accepted ...

Wooden crown boards over winter would probably solve it, but if you're determined to keep the glass on, maybe put chock under the back legs so the condensation runs to the front, out of harms way?

 

[user 6228]

bees
(However, during freezing nights in mid winter, I still put matchsticks in the corner of my glazed crown boards to prevent condensation drips!)

 

[Elaine]

When we swapped from OMF to solid, I was very concerned about the 'hygeine' issue - but the floors are completely clear of any detritus - I guess the shiny surface of the kingspan makes it really easy for the housekeeping bees to push any rubbish out of the entrance, which slopes downwards, (and is also slippy) so it looks as clean as the day they were put into the hive - which in one case was earlyJune.

 

[Finman]

.
These things are quite clear and we have had long discussions about issue.

Guys have really wrong knowledge about these things, and they are not going better.
These guys are adult. Not school children.