Varroa drop - some advice pls

[MandF]

Ok, our winter prep apiguard treatment finished, nominally, last thursday - that was the 6 weeks.

At the moment both hives are on brood&half, QE, eke/super & apiguard (now full of brace comb full of stores no doubt), extra super, CB, roof.

I was hoping to get them into semi-winter configuration this week - half brood underneath full brood, QE (to stop queen going into roof space), CB, supers to be cleared.

Now, my first problem, which I was expecting, was that due to the high temps last week, I am sure the supers are full of stores, plus the brace comb - eke's worth on one hive, super on other as only have 1 eke. So I was expecting to leave the supers above the crown board for some time for them to clear, but also to have brace comb/honey to store, possibly until next spring. First question was how to deal with this, given that its going to be tainted with thymol - so I cant have it, and I dont want to risk feeding too much next year for fear it will be moved around and end up in my honey supers at some point. Do I just throw it? Or store it (with some of hivemaker's thymol syrup) for next autumn? Any advice/tips?

The second problem is, I cleaned the varroa trays yesterday to check the drop today, and both are still dropping heavily - some 20-30 on one, 15 or so on the other. I therefore still have a varroa problem - I have not opened the hives for 4 weeks now as I wanted apiguard to have max effect, so I dont know if there is any gel left.

My initial thought was to leave it all alone for a bit longer, as Im still getting a drop the thymol must still be working to some extent, so assume some gel in the trays still. But I am a little concerned about space in the hives, I hefted both and both are very heavy, hence assumption the brace comb and supers are full - what I dont want is the bees thinking its now spring and getting into swarm mode due to the lack of space/backfilled brood. One of the guys at our apiary got a call on Sunday to say one of his hives had swarmed!

So, the other option was to stick to the first plan, rearrange the brood boxes etc, but I think I need to treat for varroa. Oxalic is no good as there will be brood. Other options (varroa guard, thymolated syrup) require feeding, but as I said, they already have too much I think. I also dont think it is safe to wait until the winter oxalic?

All I can think of at the moment, which would allow me to get into the hive, prep it for winter etc, AND deal with the varroa is to stick another apiguard tray in afterwards?

Thanks

Mark

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

I was hoping to get them into semi-winter configuration this week - half brood underneath full brood, QE (to stop queen going into roof space), CB, supers to be cleared.

Cant see how the queen could get into the roof space if there is a crownboard there (assuming feed holes covered). No need for QEs over winter at all, in fact they a BAD thing.

 

[MandF]

The QE will only be there whilst they clear the extra super, once that has been cleared I will remove it, cover the CB holes and remove the QE.

I dont expect she would move above the CB anyway, but just in case she was tempted/pushed!

 

[drstitson]

extracted supers should only take a matter of days to clear.

is the drop quoted the daily drop rate?

 

[MandF]

extracted supers should only take a matter of days to clear.

is the drop quoted the daily drop rate?

These arent extracted supers, these are supers which were either part filled or unripe at my final extraction inspection. I left them on for 2 reasons - first so they had enough space whilst the size of the hive contracted, and second so they would gradually move stores out of them, into the brood area.

What has happened, I think (from the weight) is that due to the weather and ivy flow, they have actually filled them up. So I am expecting to have 1 full super of thymolated ivy stores on each hive. I was hoping to simply move them above the CB, score them, and encourage them to empty them... but due to the amount there, and Im guessing the amount in the brood boxes, this might take some time! I guess if I have any capped I can move them off as storage will be easier.

I also dont have my own extractor, so would have to hire the association equipment even if thats possible this time of the year.

Is thymolated honey ok for cooking? ie does it lose its thymol flavour when heated?

 

[MandF]

Oh, and with regards to drop - yes, I cleared the varroa tray yesterday afternoon, and that count was from this morning.

 

[Ruary]

The first point I would make is that when you treated with Apiguard you had far far too much space over the trays. Apiguard works by two methods: 1 the bees remove the gel and it gets transferred through the hive in that manner, secondly it vaporises and that also works in diffusing through the hive. The bees don't like the smell of thymol and ventiate the hive when it is in. With all your supers etc the effects of the difused vapour have been well and truly diluted resulting in a diminished treatment.
Ruary

 

[Erichalfbee]

These arent extracted supers, these are supers which were either part filled or unripe at my final extraction inspection.

I was hoping to simply move them above the CB, score them, and encourage them to empty them...

In my very limited experience my bees wouldn't take stores down at this time of year but they would take stores up.
I had a partly filled/capped super last year and I put it under the brood box.
Looking at the shredded cappings on the floor under the hive they moved the whole lot up in three days. On my first inspection the next spring the super was empty.

 

[Arfermo]

In my very limited experience my bees wouldn't take stores down at this time of year but they would take stores up.
I had a partly filled/capped super last year and I put it under the brood box.
Looking at the shredded cappings on the floor under the hive they moved the whole lot up in three days. On my first inspection the next spring the super was empty.

with Ruary. You now have thymolated honey in your supers which is best given to the bees by moving the full supers under the BBs above the OMF (assuming that is what you have) - no QE needed. There might be enough thymol in it to reduce the varroa to a limited degree until you treat with oxalic at Xmas - but scratch the cappings first as that gets the bees doing what comes naturally. Even if not enough thymol in the honey that they move it is worth the try. In your case oxalic at Xmas will now be essential.

 

[MandF]

Ok, so I should put the super on the bottom, the half of the brood & half next, then the full brood?

Then look to take off the super on a warm winters day, or leave til spring?

I guess I will gain some isolation of the brood from wind thru OMF at the risk of having those frames hit with wax moth, and/or queenie deciding to lay in there at some point?

I guess that also means that any unfilled/partially filled frames can be removed and put above the cb for now.

 

[MandF]

The first point I would make is that when you treated with Apiguard you had far far too much space over the trays. Apiguard works by two methods: 1 the bees remove the gel and it gets transferred through the hive in that manner, secondly it vaporises and that also works in diffusing through the hive. The bees don't like the smell of thymol and ventiate the hive when it is in. With all your supers etc the effects of the difused vapour have been well and truly diluted resulting in a diminished treatment.
Ruary

Yes, but my hand was kind of forced due to the size of the hives and the timings - I did not want to take off 2 supers at the same time, and left the start of the treatment as late as I dared to.

My hives still have drones flying!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ok, so I should put the super on the bottom, the half of the brood & half next, then the full brood?

Yep.
That way you have the queen laying in the full brood box at the top in the spring.
Don't touch the two half boxes (the half brood and the super) till your first inspection in the spring when both will likely be empty Then get them off quickly........before the queen gets down there.

 

[MandF]

OK, that makes sense, thanks!

Any suggestions re: the brace comb? Shall I just dump the honey, or try putting it above the CB?

As I said, I am already worried about some of the thymolated honey on the hive at the moment ending up in a honey super next season, without the extra in the brace combs.

 

[MandF]

I just re-read an old thread on here re: thymol tainting, and it seemed to suggest that the main risk of tainting was in comb, not honey itself, and noone came back refuting or disputing that claim - so now Im thinking I may be being rather overcautious about thymol tainted honey getting into my honey supers next season!

 

[oliver90owner]

it seemed to suggest

Try the apiguard instructions. They are perfectly clear. People often just get too much hassle when refuting rubbish advice given out by some on the forum.

 

[drstitson]

"at the risk of having those frames hit with wax moth"

wax moth should get killed over winter - hence why we freeze frames to deal with it.

 

[MandF]

"at the risk of having those frames hit with wax moth"

wax moth should get killed over winter - hence why we freeze frames to deal with it.

Yeah, should do - but in London one can never guarantee below zero temps, although apparently we are due for another cold one this year.

 

[For want of a better word]

I read somewhere that thymol can not be detected in honey at levels less than 1mg/kg
( is that 1ppm?) 1000 x 1000...........

I read on here possibly that supers should be placed below the BB for winter / spring feed and then stripped of any stores and the wax recycled in the spring. ( and honey fed back.

Would the wax be "tainted " by thymol ? in incredible low amounts???

Where's that electron capture device Mr Lovelock?

 

[SimonB]

Any suggestions re: the brace comb? Shall I just dump the honey, or try putting it above the CB?

When I transferred my nuc from travelling box to hive I put all the wild comb (full of honey) into a miller feeder above the brood box. The bees cleared it in days. So if you want them to take the extra stores then that might be worth trying.