Using an incubator for QC's

[mbc]

Many thanks Norton.
Is it usual for Greek and Cypriot queen producers to use 'hard' chemicals and what 'soft' (if any ) chemicals do you use ?

 

[Norton]

I cannot comment on what products are used by others for Varroa control. I use oxalic acid only during a broodless stage. This is usually after a new queen has started laying, but before she has sealed brood. It works well. But I will probably start to use HM's thymol treatments.

The BIG problem is the residues already present in purchased wax foundation. We do not know the history of the wax used and I suspect that many of the problems we see in the beekeeping industry worldwide are caused by these residues. Obviously a lot of wax comes from China and who knows what it has in it. I urge all beekeepers to only use certified residue free wax in their hives. Keep all cappings wax separate and burn old frames and combs. use the cappings wax to make foundation. DO NOT RECYCLE WAX. The whole wax "trade in" system is very wrong in my opinion.

In addition it has been found that even wax from colonies treated with antibiotics can have antibiotic residues in the wax and these can then contaminate honey if the wax is used to make foundation.

Chemicals like fluvalinate, flumethrin and especially coumaphos are detrimental to our bees. Amitraz is as well, but breaks down easier. Fluvalinate is a very stable chemical that will take an estimated 50 years to be flushed from the system. Many chemical pollutants are also picked up from the environment and are soaked up by the wax.

These chemicals are applied at sub-lethal levels to adult bees. Worker bees are born, work and then die. I think that our bees have been damaged by these chemicals, as the queens - the sole carriers of the reproductive material have been repeatedly exposed to them. It is only logical to assume that SOME damage has been caused.

 

[fatshark]

It has been proven by studies that the queens should remain undisturbed in the mating nucs and allowed to lay for AT LEAST 14 DAYS if we are to avoid supercedure and poor performance problems.

I usually check mini-nucs on the day of emergence (or day after), then leave them. Is there evidence that this type of very early check - well before the queen matures enough to go on a mating flight - is detrimental? I like to know the cell I add to the mini-nuc wasn't a dud.

Regarding the op ... I built a honey warming cabinet using an egg incubator element earlier this year. It's very well insulated and keeps temperature extremely well. I intend to try incubating some queen cells in it next year (it'll take about 100lbs of honey, so should be big enough ), using a box with a sealed clear lid to buffer the temperature changes and retain humidity.

 

[Norton]

I don't think it disturbs the queen too much when we do a quick check like this. Also depends on the disposition of the bees. If they are a strain which reacts to interference then they could remain upset for up to 24 hours afterwards. Some docile strains just do not react at all when the hive is opened. Obviously the indifferent ones carry on as normal.

Queen rearing is not at all easy when using AMM type of bees.

 

[DorsetB]

Thanks all for your varied and interesting replies.

One point I would make is regarding the poly incubator as sold on e*bay.

I bought one of these a while back, built the heater/thermostat, tested it, got spot-on humidity and heat levels, but only got about 60% hatching success (we're talking chicken eggs here).

My neighbour lent me her Covatutto incubator, and I got over 90% success most of the time, and 100% success on 3 occasions. Chuck the eggs in, fill the water tank, stop the rotating-thingummy on day 18, eggs hatch, rinse and repeat, because you're worth it.

So this is most likely one item I will be buying outright rather than tinkering my way to a solution. You know the old DIY saying: "How much? £30? I'm sure I can build one myself at home for £45!!!"

Norton - I have had several discussions in the past re the wax issues you mentioned - as a result I have been inserting empty frames or frames with barely a starter strip in to hopefully get the purest freshest wax possible, works particularly well with swarms. Yes/no?

 

[beebreeder]

I used one of the poly boxes last year for cell transport, it actually works vey well, humidty is controlled by soaking the foam under the cells in water, having said that I think next year I am going o bite the bullet and buy a carricell box.

 

[For want of a better word]

I bought one of these a while back, built the heater/thermostat, tested it, got spot-on humidity and heat levels, but only got about 60% hatching success (we're talking chicken eggs here).

Successful for queen cells......not so good for chicken as they need regular turning !

as an aside... watched a queen hatch, and she immediately got her snout in the water tray... for a drink?

 

[Teemore]

as an aside... watched a queen hatch, and she immediately got her snout in the water tray... for a drink?

I have had the pleasure of seeing this happen over the past summer and hope to see it more frequently next year as i plan to buy a wee incubator during the winter. As a slight digression I have also had newly hatched queens running over my hands and taking honey off my fingers.

 

[drstitson]

"but only got about 60% hatching success (we're talking chicken eggs here)."

non necessarily the incubator - depends upon many factors.

our muscovies have 90-95% success both au naturale and in incubators (both DIY poly and RCOM 20).

BUt poly box and our eggs no good for ICHI. but his queens fine!!!!


BTW ICHI - had a lovely batch of Hinnies recently - randy old Charlie the runner!!!! look like muscovy at hatch BUT a little assymmetric patterning and imperfect "london look" black flash behind eyes. Some showing real hybrid vigour and odd to see Muscovy "waddling dinosaur" shape with mallard feathering (dogtooth waistcoat) or better still the muscovy build BUT standing upright!!! oh and forgot to mention - have 2 chicken mummies. and cheep/sing.

 

[drstitson]

"stop the rotating-thingummy on day 18"

since we tend to have a continuous stream of rescued broods (and mix and match mummies) we never stop rotation. doesn't affect our success.

only slight concern with incubated eggs is skewed sex ratio to males - no need for explanation peeps as was for a while a member of the team in Cambridge who had previously discovered the SRY gene and were working on chicken sex determination.

 

[DorsetB]

"but only got about 60% hatching success (we're talking chicken eggs here)."

non necessarily the incubator - depends upon many factors.

Agreed, although over an average of 6 x batches, I would assume other variables would be mitigated.

Also what was surprising was the fact that the automatic incubator immediately yielded consistently better results.

Also, if you don't stop the rotating so the chicks can orientate themselves prior to hatching, does that not cause a problem?

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

This has to be one of the most interesting threads that I have read in a long time on this forum, thank you guys.....

 

[drstitson]

"Also, if you don't stop the rotating so the chicks can orientate themselves prior to hatching, does that not cause a problem?"

They're going to get so disorientated by what we introduce them to once dry a bit of a funfair ride whilst hatching is no problem!!!!! whoever will take them gets them - duck, turkey, chicken - even the cats and dog get a look in as necessary!!! not to mention the waitress service.

 

[DorsetB]

Lol, good pics. My dog tried to eat them.

 

[drstitson]

sally the 8 month springer thinks ducks are mobile buffets or pez dispensers (due to food spillages during frantic feeding). she eats food off their backs and nibbles patterns on necks in hope of treats.

 

[Hombre]

I used one of the poly boxes last year for cell transport, it actually works vey well, humidty is controlled by soaking the foam under the cells in water, having said that I think next year I am going o bite the bullet and buy a carricell box.

Pray tell BeeBreeder why you will buy a Carricell box. I am aware of the price, what are the selling points that you feel makes it any better than what you have and what size/capacity?

Picaxe 08M2, DS18B20 temperature sensor, FET 20W halogen lamp and about a dozen lines of code.

Serious question.

 

[beebreeder]

main reason is size, its not big enough and I feel that if you make a larger one the aiflow would not be even enough to keep all the cells at correct temp/humidity, if you travel a distance with cells only to find them dead or damaged then its a no brainer, carricell has to win

 

[Hombre]

@BeeBreeder, from your comments I feel that your alternative box is thought to be either unheated or uncontrolled?

By my reckoning, Carricell is effectively a large cash box, but need not necessarily be so.
It takes a 12V (nominal) connection to accurately maintain a controlled temperature 32/33 degrees C (?). The density of cells is achieved by having a polyurethane (?) block with the tubes/queen cages milled into it and sat on a foam mat (for humidity) the heating is indirect via a metal plate diffuser that is heated by an element of some sort (heating cable) underneath. With a large/thick diffuser the heat can be spread evenly across it's area.

So what's wrong with a solution that uses a 20W halogen lamp that is switched by FET controlled by a PICAXE 08M or 08M2 micro controller which also reads a DS18B20 temperature sensor. You could use two sensors if you really wished. Cost of electronics package is about £30 when including sockets and factoring in post and package of parts from different suppliers.

I will publish a circuit and the PICAXE code if anyone is really interested,

Can you make a suitable box and route/mill the holes in a block/s of polyurethane foam which is how the packing density is achieved.

The Carricel option is generally well over £150, attracts freight charges and at that sort of cost is also likely to attract import duty.

In my opinion, a 12" cash box is OK, but a 10" is too shallow. Better to build a plywood box. It is not too difficult to include a 2 digit temperature display instead of a single LED.

So how many QCs would you like in such a box?

Update: see here.
cost 645NZD and 13lbs shipping weight . . .

 

[oliver90owner]

Hombre,

Not sure about making it with a pick axe but BC108s and 2N3055s (yes, I still have some lurking in the electronics storage drawers) come to mind, making sure that, at maximum current (power), the heat supply could not incinerate anything....(very careful in the car these days!!!).

These 'aluminium' carry boxes (Draper, etc) are still a cheap container as a basis for one of these, but, as you say, anything of the appropriate size would do.

Agreed on the exorbitant price of the NZ item - it must be easy enough to make as good a one (operationally) as that, for a fraction of the cost.

And I bet Beebreder has a soldering iron - and knows how to use it!

Regards, RAB

PS I know 2N3055 is a bit OTT for this application.

 

[For want of a better word]

but BC108s



HORRIBLE flash backs to my days of HNC Electronics and measuring all the parameters of that little beast.... possibly because the BC 108 was so cheap we could blow them up happily!