Use of queen-less hives!!!

[Finman]

Also no need for varroa treatments if the first thing you do is remove queen and all brood,brilliant advice,could be why there is so many winter losses,ccd explained,do they use this queenless,broodless system in usa. So when would be best to remove queens and brood to prevent swarming in uk,would think about second week in april,and put queens back in sept after the heather.

I thought that this was a joke by old fart.
All problems resolved in couple of sentences. And if the hives exctract themselves too, that's perfect.

 

[user 382]

Jim (Shot down for going against the grain!)

Hi Jim,

I wasn't having a go at you when I said it goes against the grain. It was just my thoughts on the subject. It's not something I'd want to try.

All the best,
Steve

 

[grizzly]

interesting to read all the vastly experienced views, i myself would not do this, for the simple reason that subjecting a colony to unaturally long periods without a queen over steps the mark.

 

[mrDoe]

Has anyone else read Dugats "Skyscraper Hive"? He built multi-queen colonies with no-queen supers between each. They benefit from each others warmth and build into super colonies. Then just a couple of weeks before a nectar flow all the queens (or all but one) are removed and the resulting crop is awesome.

I've long wanted to try this (ok, I know it might not meld with the ethos here, sorry) but our main predictable flows here are both so early in the season it is impractical, unfortunately.



Peter
Cambridge UK

 

[Finman]

Then just a couple of weeks before a nectar flow all the queens

It must be done when nectar flow starts. The secret is feeding of larvae and it takes only one week when all larvae have been capped.

If you do mammuth hives and they have not enough work to do, the hives get swarming in their mind. 2 week is too early.

But big hives are awfull to handle anyway.

 

[mrDoe]

It must be done when nectar flow starts. The secret is feeding of larvae and it takes only one week when all larvae have been capped.

If you do mammuth hives and they have not enough work to do, the hives get swarming in their mind. 2 week is too early.

But big hives are awfull to handle anyway.

Hi Finman


I'll check when I get home, but I think he does say a couple of weeks before the flow; of course nothing in beekeeping will work for everyone.

Have you read his book? It is an interesting read.


Peter
Cambridge UK

 

[Finman]

Hi Finman


I'll check when I get home, but I think he does say a couple of weeks before the flow; of course nothing in beekeeping will work for everyone.

Have you read his book? It is an interesting read.

No but I have done that queenless trick 40 years. But if you do not accept my experiences, it is only your headace.

If I put together big hives 2 weeks before honey flow, they surely will swarm.

Biggest hives swarm first...

And I know too that everything is so different in UK. Nothing works there like in other countries. HEH HEH, Shake bees.

These hives are enough big to me It is almost 2 metre high. I took 90 kg capped honey away from hive.

.

 

[mrDoe]

No but I have done that queenless trick 40 years. But if you do not accept my experiences, it is only your headace.

If I put together big hives 2 weeks before honey flow, they surely will swarm.

Biggest hives swarm first...

And I know too that everything is so different in UK. Nothing works there like in other countries. HEH HEH, Shake bees.

I've not dismissed your experiences anywhere that I'm aware of?

Nor have I ever said Dugats skyscrapers were put together two weeks before a flow as you claim. From memory, his skyscrapers are put together a couple of months before the flow, so they build up into what would be strong colonies themselves but which together constitute a super colony, then the queens are removed a couple of weeks before the flow (as I said I will check his exact timing when I get home tonight) and kept in nucs ready to return to individual colonies after the flow.

I think the resulting queen cells are cut out until no viable eggs are left for the bees to rear queens from. I had planned to leave one queen in the middle of the stack to help prevent swarming, but that was just an idea I was toying with.

So, de-queened the brood hatches, but then without larvae to feed the nurse bees move on to forage more quickly. Because you now have a number of very strong colonies of mostly foragers the skyscraper can collect vastly more than the individual hives it consists of could have done as individual hives. For each colony added to the skyscraper you more than double the harvest you would have expected before it's addition (I think it was x4 but will check). The maths are VERY impressive.

Yes, done badly it can all go horribly wrong, like many things. My regional bee inspector told me the record for the largest recorded swarm in Essex came from a skyscraper hive a couple of decades ago. But again, like most things, done properly the results can apparently be impressive.

I've long wanted to try this purely for curiosities sake, but as I said I don?t have the late flows required around my apiaries.




Peter
Cambridge UK

 

[Finman]

I'v his skyscrapers are put together a couple of months before the flow,

That makes no sence. It is against everything what have written about swarming control.

 

[mrDoe]

That makes no sence. It is against everything what have written about swarming control.

How so?

From the floor up, for a four queen skyscraper, you'd have..... floor, broodbox, qx, super, qx, broodbox, qx, super, qx, broodbox, qx, super, qx, broodbox, qx, then as many supers as needed and a roof. As soon as you de-queen the skyscraper you'd have... floor, broodbox, broodbox, broodbox, broodbox, supers and a roof.

Yes, the tower might become very tall; I was going to make one against a banked wall or in an empty silage pit, so you could work it from two levels. But you don't have to have a four colony tower, even a two colony skyscraper should produce 4 times the yield that the two individual colonies would have produced.

Timing with a skyscraper is everything apparently, get all those foragers in place and there is no flow and you'll have a problem for sure.

I must say I'm surprised by your reply (above)! Many would have said to your post about your de-queening experience that "it goes against everything what have written about swarming control." and yet you are seemingly quick to dismiss anything that you yourself have not experienced. That seems a bit hypocritical to me. I think I have a spare copy of Dugats book if you want to PM me your address I'll gladly lend it to you? Maybe you'd understand the system better then than I've been explaining it.


Peter
Cambridge UK

 

[Finman]

Peter, how many years have you nursed bees?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Peter. idea. So why not just take all your hives and unite the lot together,if thats what you want. forage area gets yield.

 

[Finman]

.
Here is one solution. Then you need a horse that you may change pastures.

 

[mrDoe]

I've one duplicate copy of Dugat's Skyscraper Hive.

I'm done with posting rational explanations to the best of my ability, only to be replied to with dismissive one liners.

If anyone wants to read Dugats book and report back to the group PM with an address to send it to.



Peter
Cambridge UK