Treatment Free doesn't work

[Boston Bees]

Having a swarm move into a house can be properly distressing especially for people who aren't bee lovers. And very expensive and messy to sort out. Not many hobbies can cause such annoyance for other people as ours.

 

[Erichalfbee]

They annoy beekeepers too. I watched scouts investigating a bait hive for a few days. When the swarm eventually arrived most of it stayed in the ivy nearby and suddenly took off into my chimney pot. Talk about panic. I got the woodturner lit in record time and thankfully they went into the box....phew!

 

[Beesnaturally]

I've never experienced such problems. And I balance human needs and desires against bees' needs. They need, in my opinion, places to live, places where they can recover from beekeepers' depredations. As I've indicated I've met all sorts of people who are absolutely charmed to have them. I've rarely been asked to remove them except by people who feel they have little choice for one reason or another. I've had a little old lady who hosted a nest low in an apple tree in her garden for many years, swarming often. She and her gardener simply loved them. I know a family who have had chimney nest for at least 10 years. They too love them; like us they find the delirium of a swarm a priceless joy.

Perhaps its a different mindset. Rest assured my sense of social responsibilty finds other outlets.

 

[BrumB]

OK well that's depressing. Thanks!

But I guess it's got to be the exception rather than the rule.

Not really the exception one of our branch collectors turned up to a swarm in a tree, half an hour too late... could only watch as it entered the nearby houses chimney...

 

[Wilco]

I got the woodturner lit in record time and thankfully they went into the box....phew!

You set fire to @pargyle???

 

[Erichalfbee]

You set fire to @pargyle???

oops.....burner

 

[Boston Bees]

Not really the exception one of our branch collectors turned up to a swarm in a tree, half an hour too late... could only watch as it entered the nearby houses chimney...

But was it from a hive within 100 metres?

 

[Newbeeneil]

I think, unless you have an apiary that is remote from human habitation - and there is evidence that some swarms will fly quite a distance for a preferred home, you have to consider whether not controlling swarming is responsible:

There was a study of the distance swarms will go after the initial settle - I think it was Seeley or Dewey - I have this table from my original course notes but it doesn't tell me who did the study.

0 to 300 meters.. 1
300 to 600 meters.. 12
600 to 900 meters.. 6
900 to 1200 meters.. 4
1200 to 1500.. 4
1500 to 1800 meters.. 3
18oo to 2100 meters.. 0
2100 to 2400 meters.. 0
2400 to 2700.. 1
2700 to 2900 meters.. 2
2900 to 3300 meters.. 1
3300 to 4200 meters.. 0
4200 to 4500 meters.. 1

So, if the study was a legitimate indicaton, the vast majority of swarms will find a new home between 300 and 1200 metres away from their settlement point and a few wlll fly much further. So, if there is a chance of a swarm takking up residence in a domestic situation ... and the apiary is within, let's be generous, a kilometre of such a place then a responsible beekeeper would practice swarm control of one sort or another, Relying on catching swarms, unless you are prepared to watch a colony 10 or more hours a day during the swarm season, is not really an option.

Interesting Philip but not what I find.
As I've said in a different post, I'm picking up swarms from a commercial beek who is about 75 m from the bait hives I have on my mates land. I've had 4 in less than a week. (11 in the last 3 years) I think the most important thing is that their future accommodation is what they are looking for. Obviously the bees can't be bothered to look further than my bait hives (20litre and 30litre) with old comb and traces of previous swarms

 

[madasafish]

In addition to my escapades above:
1. The local bees which live under the local school roof ( 4 storeys high and 100m away - screened from us by a neighbour and trees) swarmed straight into a empty hive in our garden. (they were horrible and chased everyone all around the garden until requeened)
2. In my early days - about 10 years ago - one hive swarmed into another which was at least 5 meters from the original hive.

 

[Ian123]

I always put a bait hive up in the apiary or nearby, often they’ll be occupied from those on site. Pretty sure I’ve seen a marked take up if lures are also used for those on site.

 

[BrumB]

But was it from a hive within 100 metres?

Yes from the allotment next door! Birmingham suburbs...

 

[Antipodes]

Well .... You can look back over my several thousand posts and you can see I've been beating my treatment free path since I started keeping bees. You can believe me or not ... I really don't worry what anyone else thinks or believes. I don't encourage anyone to follow in my footsteps and I'm not on a crusade, my bees are not super bees or hygienic bees (I haven't tested them) and I don't claim they are varroa free - there are varroa in my colonies but not excessive levels - they fluctuate.

I've said, on many occasions, that there are many factors that influence the ability of bees to remain TF and they are complex and I don't believe they are easily repeatable.

I said earlier, I've just taken over two colonies that were varroa factories belonging to a forum member and they were treated for varroa when they arrived and I know they were clean - indeed, after treatment there were few signs of any mites in the colonies (they were heavily treated in the Autumn).

I've transferred them into the same hives as my other colonies and they will now be kept in exactly the same conditions and location as my other colonies - it will be interesting to see how they fare.

I've no axe to grind, I'm not an evangelist for treatment free and I don't intend commenting further in this thread unless specifically asked a question ... how we look after our bees is a personal decision - I don't feel the need to either justify or explain any further than I have in the past.

This thread will stand on its own or die, personally, I'm not sure what the point of it is - an opening post that just invites others to discuss is not the most auspicious start to a thread and I would have expected more.

But .. despite that - what we won't permit is it to descend into an ever decreasing spiral of pointless comments or unsubstantiated argument.

I can't find the post (it was on another thread) where you mentioned that you test each of your colonies with a sugar shake.... I think you said three or four times a year?
Do you have a particular threshold for number of mites found in a given test?

 

[pargyle]

I can't find the post (it was on another thread) where you mentioned that you test each of your colonies with a sugar shake.... I think you said three or four times a year?
Do you have a particular threshold for number of mites found in a given test?

I rarely find more than one or two in a sample of around 200 bees (a cupful) ... I've seen 5 on a few occasions and held my breath and my nerve and in those instances I've gone back and tested again a week later and they have always gone down. If I found more than 5 consistently over a few tests (I'd be testing weekly at that stage) I think I would bite the bullet and blast them with OA ... the acid test is always to watch for the vectored diseases - particularly DWV - I've never had any DWV (or any serious other brood diseases) but if I did I would be doing something about it.

I'm not pious or or inflexible about being TF ... if it comes to the point where I think my bees are being seriously affected (or even just affected) by varroa I would do something about it. Whilst I can remain TF and my bees are doing well ... I see no reason to treat.

I'm not alone in this ... I was talking to a fellow beek who has over 70 hives in apiares scattered around Hampshire and he's been TF for years ... he says he loses the odd colony but he compares his losses with others that treat and he says his losses compare very favourably.

 

[Antipodes]

I rarely find more than one or two in a sample of around 200 bees (a cupful) ... I've seen 5 on a few occasions and held my breath and my nerve and in those instances I've gone back and tested again a week later and they have always gone down. If I found more than 5 consistently over a few tests (I'd be testing weekly at that stage) I think I would bite the bullet and blast them with OA ... the acid test is always to watch for the vectored diseases - particularly DWV - I've never had any DWV (or any serious other brood diseases) but if I did I would be doing something about it.

I'm not pious or or inflexible about being TF ... if it comes to the point where I think my bees are being seriously affected (or even just affected) by varroa I would do something about it. Whilst I can remain TF and my bees are doing well ... I see no reason to treat.

I'm not alone in this ... I was talking to a fellow beek who has over 70 hives in apiares scattered around Hampshire and he's been TF for years ... he says he loses the odd colony but he compares his losses with others that treat and he says his losses compare very favourably.

Thanks. That's absolutely fantastic! Do you have a brood break at your place? According to this article, significant differences can occur with increase in mites if there is a brood break. Brood for half the year sees a potential 12 fold increase. No brood break sees a potential 800 fold increase.

https://beeaware.org.au/archive-pest/varroa-mites/#ad-image-0
In relation to the other chap you mention who doesn't treat, and has an odd colony of his that dies, are those infested colonies completely overwhelmed by varroa in the end? Do they necessarily turn into what I think is called a varroa bomb, or does he perhaps euthanise the badly affected colonies before that happens?

 

[pargyle]

Thanks. That's absolutely fantastic! Do you have a brood break at your place? According to this article, significant differences can occur with increase in mites if there is a brood break. Brood for half the year sees a potential 12 fold increase. No brood break sees a potential 800 fold increase.

https://beeaware.org.au/archive-pest/varroa-mites/#ad-image-0
In relation to the other chap you mention who doesn't treat, and has an odd colony of his that dies, are those infested colonies completely overwhelmed by varroa in the end? Do they necessarily turn into what I think is called a varroa bomb, or does he perhaps euthanise the badly affected colonies before that happens?

There is sometimes a short brood break late in the year - December or January but, living where I do on the South Coast, it is very mild and I think they are very short.

As for the beek with 70 hives ... he doesn't check for varroa so the ones that fail - fail. He suspects that some of them may be varroa related but ... who knows ? He reckons about 5% colony loss each year which doesn't sound too bad in the scheme of things, he doesn't euthanase colonies - these are just colony failures. I've never seen his operation first hand, he's a member of our association and we were chatting, last weekend, at the Bees and Honey weekend we hold at a local venue every year. I'd like to know more ...

 

[Beesnaturally]

I have a break on at the moment, which I seem to get in all the large colonies about now, which is due to (?) the foragers filling the brood nest with honey. Its been a good spring and summer and I've been a little behind in making room at times, but it seems to me there is a pattern over the years. I've noticed because I can't get eggs/larvae from my best colonies. Last year I bought a queen home and kept her drawing comb, and that worked, but really I want her performing and making drones.
I've wondered often however if this is the workers forcing a brood break on the queen. As mentioned, it can make a vast difference to the varroa numbers, but I'd be interested to know how quickly that happens.