Treatment Free doesn't work

[Anduril]

I thought this would be interesting:

 

[Fusion_power]

Define successful treatment free beekeeping as colony survival for at least 5 years with no treatments and no hive manipulations specific to limiting varroa reproduction. This prohibits varroacides, induced brood breaks, essential oils, organic acids, etc. By that measure, my bees are probably capable of long term survival. They have not been treated since the fall of 2004.

I have to do ordinary things like split colonies each spring to keep them from swarming.

 

[BrumB]

It varies with the season of course. And it's changed over time. This year I'm making a (not entirely successful) effort to find queen cells. If I find any I will break up the hive. I'm also culling lost causes, two so far this year. I've kept drone layers going through spring, but too much sackbrood and/or chalkbrood is a death sentence. In the past I've let them go, and they've often surprised me. They produced nothing for a couple of seasons, then boomed beautifully, and I've put this down to a successful succession. But now I want to use the proven hives to make more high yielding hives, so I'm tidying up. It's been a process, through live and let die (but don't kill) to, now, I hope the potential for feeding genes from a breeding core to more out-apiaries - a more normal operation, that will however remain treatment-free.

An interesting thread...
I keep about 30 colonies about 10 years ago I started removing varroa treatments gradually at first. No autumn treatment only winter trickle with OA. Then full cold Turkey! I've got various generations of daughters now (varroa) treatment free for at least 5 in some cases 6 years. For me the holy grail is that bees can live with varroa rather than be over come by it. And that at least for now seems to be working...
I have noticed in that time an increase in open brood. What I haven't done is examine varroa from floors to see if they have been nibbled.
So like others that have commented I'm one of those that doesn't need to know how it works just that it is working.
For the last 2 years Ive also started using solid floors for over wintering.
Other sub species of apis have evolved that symbiotic relationship with varroa so why can't ours... the more we intervene the less chance they have too..

Bees naturally

 

[BrumB]

Fat fingers lol it posted before I finished...

Bees naturally are you in an urban area? Just interested after your inspection frequency comment?

 

[roche]

Is there an increased number of swarms or splits if treatment free?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Fat fingers lol it posted before I finished...

Bees naturally are you in an urban area? Just interested after your inspection frequency comment?

Hi BrumB, good to hear from another fellow traveller! No, rural, relatively remote from other beekeepers.

 

[BrumB]

Hi BrumB, good to hear from another fellow traveller! No, rural, relatively remote from other beekeepers.

Ah ok I'm in the suburbs lol and swarm prevention and control is a key thing for me. Not only are you losing the production value of the colony but in an area like this most swarms end up in buildings. So not being a nuisance is the other thing lol

 

[pargyle]

Is there an increased number of swarms or splits if treatment free?

Not necessarily ... most of those of us who are TF also practice responsible swarm control and inspect for queen cells during the swarm season (and do something about it when we find them !).

 

[roche]

Not necessarily ... most of those of us who are TF also practice responsible swarm control and inspect for queen cells during the swarm season (and do something about it when we find them !).

I suppose what I really meant was - are the bees swarmier? As part of their evolving towards co-existence with varroa...

 

[Beesnaturally]

Not necessarily ... most of those of us who are TF also practice responsible swarm control and inspect for queen cells during the swarm season (and do something about it when we find them !).

It is actually irresponsible to allow bees to fly off as their maker intended? In a town setting, or even a village one, perhaps.

There is an argument centred on disease-harbouring, and the home-owner argument: are there any others that speak to responsibilities?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I suppose what I really meant was - are the bees swarmier? As part of their evolving towards co-existence with varroa...

I don't thing so or find it so. Those things that tend toward swarming - cramped coonditions, nowhere to build comb - tend to lead toward swarming: but as I try to avoid those conditions I doubt mine build swarm cells any more that anyone elses.

Its quite possible that tendency has developed in other sub-strains, but I'd expect things to level back to the average if natural selection is allowed to play out.

The grand statement is: "Energy is the ultimate object under competition in natural selection."

Those individuals that most effectively turn available energy into the largest number of viable offspring, win. Future generations are built from them.

 

[pargyle]

It is actually irresponsible to allow bees to fly off as their maker intended? In a town setting, or even a village one, perhaps.

There is an argument centred on disease-harbouring, and the home-owner argument: are there any others that speak to responsibilities?

I think, unless you have an apiary that is remote from human habitation - and there is evidence that some swarms will fly quite a distance for a preferred home, you have to consider whether not controlling swarming is responsible:

There was a study of the distance swarms will go after the initial settle - I think it was Seeley or Dewey - I have this table from my original course notes but it doesn't tell me who did the study.

0 to 300 meters.. 1
300 to 600 meters.. 12
600 to 900 meters.. 6
900 to 1200 meters.. 4
1200 to 1500.. 4
1500 to 1800 meters.. 3
18oo to 2100 meters.. 0
2100 to 2400 meters.. 0
2400 to 2700.. 1
2700 to 2900 meters.. 2
2900 to 3300 meters.. 1
3300 to 4200 meters.. 0
4200 to 4500 meters.. 1

So, if the study was a legitimate indicaton, the vast majority of swarms will find a new home between 300 and 1200 metres away from their settlement point and a few wlll fly much further. So, if there is a chance of a swarm takking up residence in a domestic situation ... and the apiary is within, let's be generous, a kilometre of such a place then a responsible beekeeper would practice swarm control of one sort or another, Relying on catching swarms, unless you are prepared to watch a colony 10 or more hours a day during the swarm season, is not really an option.

 

[Boston Bees]

I think, unless you have an apiary that is remote from human habitation - and there is evidence that some swarms will fly quite qhite a distance for a preferred home:

There was a study of the distance swarms will go after the initial settle - I think it was Seeley or Dewey - I have this table from my original course notes but it doesn't tell me who did the study.

0 to 300 meters.. 1
300 to 600 meters.. 12
600 to 900 meters.. 6
900 to 1200 meters.. 4
1200 to 1500.. 4
1500 to 1800 meters.. 3
18oo to 2100 meters.. 0
2100 to 2400 meters.. 0
2400 to 2700.. 1
2700 to 2900 meters.. 2
2900 to 3300 meters.. 1
3300 to 4200 meters.. 0
4200 to 4500 meters.. 1

So, if the study was a legitimate indicaton, the vast majority of swarms will find a new home between 300 and 1200 metres away from their settlement point and a few wlll fly much further. So, if there is a chance of a swarm takking up residence in a domestic situation ... and the apiary is within, let's be generous, a kilometre of such a place then a responsible beekeeper would practice swarm control of one sort or another, Relying on catching swarms, unless you are prepared to watch a colony 10 or more hours a day during the swarm season, is not really an option.

This is actually excellent news for my immediate neighbours who are well within 300m of me - thanks for this!

Has anyone had a swarm leave their hive and move into either their own house or an immediate neighbour's house? (Ignore situations where they move into a bait hive nearby please - I am talking about swarms that move into walls/soffits/chimneys etc)

 

[madasafish]

This is actually excellent news for my immediate neighbours who are well within 300m of me - thanks for this!

Has anyone had a swarm leave their hive and move into either their own house or an immediate neighbour's house? (Ignore situations where they move into a bait hive nearby please - I am talking about swarms that move into walls/soffits/chimneys etc)

Yes: next door neighbour's chimney. About 30m away from the hive.
I asked them to light a fire immediately (folded paper).They did. Bees left and I collected them.

 

[Boston Bees]

Yes: next door neighbour's chimney. About 30m away from the hive.
I asked them to light a fire immediately (folded paper).They did. Bees left and I collected them.

OK well that's depressing. Thanks!

But I guess it's got to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I think, unless you have an apiary that is remote from human habitation - and there is evidence that some swarms will fly quite a distance for a preferred home, you have to consider whether not controlling swarming is responsible:

There was a study of the distance swarms will go after the initial settle - I think it was Seeley or Dewey - I have this table from my original course notes but it doesn't tell me who did the study.

0 to 300 meters.. 1
300 to 600 meters.. 12
600 to 900 meters.. 6
900 to 1200 meters.. 4
1200 to 1500.. 4
1500 to 1800 meters.. 3
18oo to 2100 meters.. 0
2100 to 2400 meters.. 0
2400 to 2700.. 1
2700 to 2900 meters.. 2
2900 to 3300 meters.. 1
3300 to 4200 meters.. 0
4200 to 4500 meters.. 1

So, if the study was a legitimate indicaton, the vast majority of swarms will find a new home between 300 and 1200 metres away from their settlement point and a few wlll fly much further. So, if there is a chance of a swarm takking up residence in a domestic situation ... and the apiary is within, let's be generous, a kilometre of such a place then a responsible beekeeper would practice swarm control of one sort or another, Relying on catching swarms, unless you are prepared to watch a colony 10 or more hours a day during the swarm season, is not really an option.

Really, what are the chances? And then what is the likelihood they will mind? I've removed lots of colonies from built locations where the residents have testified to having enjoyed having them there (but now... something has come up...)

I don't consider it irresponsible to let the odd swarm find its way to freedom. My locations are all fairly unpopulated mind. I have collected more in the past than I've lost, some maybe I have some credits

 

[Erichalfbee]

Has anyone had a swarm leave their hive and move into either their own house or an immediate neighbour's house? (Ignore situations where they move into a bait hive nearby please - I am talking about swarms that move into walls/soffits/chimneys etc)

Yes. Just today.
A member of our local BKA messaged me about a swarm of hers that bivouacked in a tree in the apiary yesterday and have now moved into her roof.

 

[Boston Bees]

Yes. Just today.
A member of our local BKA messaged me about a swarm of hers that bivouacked in a tree in the apiary yesterday and have now moved into her roof.

Oh dear!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes. Oh dear.
I’m jolly glad I’m not her.

 

[pargyle]

Really, what are the chances? And then what is the likelihood they will mind? I've removed lots of colonies from built locations where the residents have testified to having enjoyed having them there (but now... something has come up...)

I don't consider it irresponsible to let the odd swarm find its way to freedom. My locations are all fairly unpopulated mind. I have collected more in the past than I've lost, some maybe I have some credits

Well .. depends on your neighbours as to whether they mind or not ... bees taking up residence in a chimney is an expense to remove and cause all sorts of problems.

Likelihood ? Well - two examples on here today ...

I suppose it also depends upon whether you have a social conscience - I'd rather avoid giving my neighbours any concerns about my beekeeping if I can.