Top bar

[Heather]

Help.. I was given a top bar hive last year..
Put in a few prepared frames and the rest blank to total 20 . Popped a prime swarm in last June.. Just checked regularly via the side window, treated for varroa in December and now they are getting big! 14 frames beautifully extended down and out.. bees very busy.
Don't want to disturb them, and never looked for a queen, but should I be checking every frame, and doing any manipulations..
They are going to have filled this hive in a month, cannot do a swarm control into another hive, but don't want them to swarm as that is a nuisance to all.

All advice welcomed.

 

[badger28]

Hi,

I am no expert, but I do have a top bar...

Generally I check a few bars from edge in to make sure I see stores / brood, and make sure the comb isn't attached to the sides of the hive so it is easier to pull them out without breaking. Other than that I have left mine.

Not too sure how you can stop swarms without giving them more space! If you have honey on those bars, you could harvest it which will give them more room...

Am sure someone knowledgeable will be around soon.

Sent from my GM1903 using Tapatalk

 

[bingevader]

I'm not knowledgeable! But I have split a kTBH.
You can do a spit within the hive itself as long as you have several corked holes.
It does require moving the hive a few feet, so not really anything you could do on your own.
It involves moving the hive so that one of the blocked end entrances is then then where the old entrance is.
You put bars with eggs and brood at this end and move the queen down the other, both separated by dummy boards.
You then remove the cork from the stopper at the other end where the queen is (preferably on the opposite side).
Flying bees then return to the end at the old entrance site to raise a new queen.
It's laid out in Phil Chandler's Barefoot Beekeeping book which you can download.
NO experience of this, but you could also shook swarm (!!!) or use the Taranov method to split into a different hive.

 

[pargyle]

Just do a split in the normal way - you can transfer the frames of brood and stores into a standard national box by cable tieing the Top bars and associated comb from the TBH to top bars from a std national hive. Most top bar hives are narrower than a national so it should not be a problem. You can work the free comb out of the split over a few inspections.

If you are brave you could even wait until they start building queen cells and then do an AS using the above method.

Don't be frightened of lifting the top bars with free comb on them - they are quite robust and as long as you free them from the landings and cut through any brace comb joining them together they don't fall apart. Try and keep them vertical - particularly ones full of stores as the weight can cause the comb to break off at the top bar if you hold them so the comb is horizontal.

 

[bingevader]

Don't be frightened of lifting the top bars with free comb on them - they are quite robust and as long as you free them from the landings and cut through any brace comb joining them together they don't fall apart. Try and keep them vertical - particularly ones full of stores as the weight can cause the comb to break off at the top bar if you hold them so the comb is horizontal.

Indeed, I'm never sure why people suggest that manipulation of top bar combs is difficult.
I examine mine in the same way suggested in the Feb 2020 BBKA News for standard frames.

 

[Heather]

I have no problem with manipulation.. just they are soon going to have filled the hive and the top bars don't fit into a basic hive to split them.
I can remove some honey stores but may be easier to nip queen out and concentrate their minds to a new queen scenario, whilst I use her in a new colony I can create. She is obviously very good as the colony is strong.

 

[viridens]

...Not too sure how you can stop swarms without giving them more space! If you have honey on those bars, you could harvest it which will give them more room...

Harvesting gives them room, that is an empty top bar. Since the comb is not returned to the hive, there is no additional place for the Q to lay or for honey storage until new comb is drawn. This may not head off the impetus to swarm.

 

[viridens]

...Just do a split in the normal way - you can transfer the frames of brood and stores into a standard national box by cable tieing the Top bars and associated comb from the TBH to top bars from a std national hive. ...

I find that long rubber bands work better. In fact I cut and join a couple to get the right length and use 2 per bar. It is also a much easier job with two people. One to hold the comb where it should be, the other to stretch and position the bands.

 

[pargyle]

I find that long rubber bands work better. In fact I cut and join a couple to get the right length and use 2 per bar. It is also a much easier job with two people. One to hold the comb where it should be, the other to stretch and position the bands.

I was suggesting that she keep the comb on the top bars and then cable tie the top bars to a top bar from a National hive frame - but it seems as though the top bars in her TBH must be wider than a national hive, in which case the other option would be what you suggest and just transfer the comb to national frames. I agree that long rubber bands are the ideal for this job - exactly what I've done in the past. It really does need two people as it's a right pain on your own (Been there got the T-shirt !)

 

[Fritillary]

I'm not sure how long your particular top bar is.
As others have said there are different options, but my feeling is that, if your queen is really already going like the clappers in there, then the top bar isn't going to be suitable for her. I've had to move a colony with a very prolific golden queen in the past from a top bar into a National... in my experience they are just too small for the most prolific bees.

 

[viridens]

Heather

Your healthy colony has expanded across 14 out of 20 bars, so they still have almost a third of the hive left to fill. What the colony needs now is not really empty space, but comb for the storage of forage and for the Q to lay into. This is where frames and extraction score over top bar hives, where we have to rely on new comb being drawn as required for these purposes.
Anyhow, Michael Bush would say "You have to keep feeding empty bars into the brood nest to keep it open" as a strategy.
There are also more radical options if you want to give them more space. You can add an extension on to an end of the box, or even modify the lid and add a box on over the brood nest as a 'super'.
But remember that swarming is a natural process, and you can't always prevent it without resorting to 'unnatural' interventions such as splitting. -And as many posts here will show, even with active swarm prevention techniques they may still go...

 

[Heather]

My top bars are about 1/4" higher than the equivalent national frames in a National box, hence the difficulty in any transfer.
Had to make a very thin eke last Autumn to move a colony from a top bar Nuc (6 frames) into a national. Got messy, but finally succeeded in settling them, and now all on Nat frames.
I must stop accepting gifts of different types of hive!!
Both Top bar with 20+ frames and the top bar Nuc were freebies, so couldn't refuse...

 

[madasafish]

Add empty frames singly between two drawn out frames: this guides the bees to draw out combs straight. Preferably at or near outer edge of brood nest where they will be drawn in a nectar flow

If you want to prevent swarming remove combs filled with honey and extract (crush and strain or press)..and insert empty frames as above.

Once the back end -assuming side entrances - of the hive is full of capped honey they will swarm so giving them work to do drawing out comb will help prevent swarming..

(been there, done it,succeeded at times.. and failed as well).

I gave up inspecting TBHs in June - too much hassle.

 

[Fritillary]

Had to make a very thin eke last Autumn to move a colony from a top bar Nuc (6 frames) into a national. Got messy :

Yes, that sound familiar!

 

[Teebeeaitch]

Heather, you started off mentioning frames but I am guessing you are referring to top bars in a KTBH. You can’t go wrong if you listen to Michael Bush’s advice so I would check out his website, it’s much more informative than this forum for TBHs. I agree space is needed but the key is where you give them that space. Removing bars of capped honey if you have some, is a good start. As madasafish points out, you need to create space not just outside the brood nest but more importantly within it. The technique of feeding a couple of plain bars (or empty drawn ones if you have any) in between drawn bars in the brood nest is your best option. If you have a 4ft hive you MAY be successful, if it’s a 3ft hive, just enjoy watching them swarm later.

 

[Fritillary]

The technique of feeding a couple of plain bars (or empty drawn ones if you have any) in between drawn bars in the brood nest is your best option.

I used strips or V shapes of foundation pinned to the underneath of bars using wooden beading strips for exactly this. A bit of a faff but it's worked well in the past.

 

[Heather]

Many thanks all, appreciate. Been an interesting new side to my bee keeping. And a joy to see what they have done . They are beautiful bees, and may nick some larvae for grafting as think the gene pool good.

 

[beeno]

Many thanks all, appreciate. Been an interesting new side to my bee keeping. And a joy to see what they have done . They are beautiful bees, and may nick some larvae for grafting as think the gene pool good.

Cut to size with a pair of scissors.

 

[pargyle]

I must stop accepting gifts of different types of hive!!
Both Top bar with 20+ frames and the top bar Nuc were freebies, so couldn't refuse...

It's a disease very common in beekeepers .. Freebeeitis - SADLY INCURABLE !

I have it - i also have another one related to my woodturning - Freewooditis - even more degenerative as the assembled piles of timber in the garden don't look in the least bit useful, are not easily hidden and lead to major levels of stress in other family members (not, of course, in the sufferer !). Perhaps it should be renamed Freewooditis by Proxy ?