The law and bee keeping , the use of agricultural land for bees

[JamezF]

I know James , I was so shocked , it seems there are no concrete rules just his opinion that the decision will be based on

You can play hard ball in such cases, but it has the opportunity to become very stressful if you don't already know your way around the planning laws.

James

 

[JamezF]

The land historically had cows on it then fell into disrepair for twenty years
New owners have cleared the land and reseeded
Whilst putting up The stock fence a neighbour asked what we were doing and said he wasn’t happy . The complaint went in that afternoon so obviously a nuisance complaint would follow if the enforcement was squashed
Not sure where to go from here

If the land had historically been used for agricultural pasture then it may be the case that there's no consent to allow it to be used for horses now unless the new owners have applied for a change of use. It might be a kindness to check with the current owners since the planning officer is sniffing around so that they don't get any nasty surprises.

If you genuinely believe that a nuisance complaint will be submitted should you eventually be allowed to go ahead then put empty closed up hives on the site and wait for it to happen. Make sure the complainant documents how they know the bees are yours before "the reveal"

James

 

[madasafish]

If the land had historically been used for agricultural pasture then it may be the case that there's no consent to allow it to be used for horses now unless the new owners have applied for a change of use. It might be a kindness to check with the current owners since the planning officer is sniffing around so that they don't get any nasty surprises.

If you genuinely believe that a nuisance complaint will be submitted should you eventually be allowed to go ahead then put empty closed up hives on the site and wait for it to happen. Make sure the complainant documents how they know the bees are yours before "the reveal"

James

Agreed.
Nothing makes an objector look more like a fool than complaining about bees which do not exist (yet).

 

[Wilco]

Thank you so much for your help
Planning officer said a few hives recreational
Many hives would be ok
I’m trying to get together as much info to provide to him when he turns , being informed rather than picking a fight seems like the best initial response
He also said chickens are recreational !

Size of business does not stop it being a business. If you sell any of your honey, it's a business even if not profitable.

Amount produced does not determine whether it's agriculture. Keeping animals for food or anything they produce (e.g. Wool with sheep) is agriculture.

If you want to go belt and braces: Register with FSA as a food business operator, do a tax return as a sole trader. Then you'll have evidence to show it's a business.

He's got a point that a lot of the time the small scale stuff starts as a hobby and some do take the Michael but I disagree with his conclusions. Hobbies are how a lot of businesses are built and the two are not mutually exclusive- one could even argue he's stifling businesses from being able to develop.

The hens is a similar point, but if anyone is eating the eggs or any of the birds it's still a form of agriculture - not intensive but still agriculture as animals are being kept for food production. If any of the eggs are sold, it becomes a business - again, even if unprofitable.

Separately, you might want a hearts and minds attempt on the individual who complained before playing hardball with that individual.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You may just have succeeded in poking a hole in my assertion

not very difficult with some of the rubbish you post

 

[Beesnaturally]

Thank you so much for your help
The land historically had cows on it then fell into disrepair for twenty years
New owners have cleared the land and reseeded
Whilst putting up The stock fence a neighbour asked what we were doing and said he wasn’t happy . The complaint went in that afternoon so obviously a nuisance complaint would follow if the enforcement was squashed
Not sure where to go from here

Are the hives close to the neighbour's boundary? He/she may be thinking you will expand, and at some point start devaluing his land, and/or your bees may 'be a nuisance'. Having them some distance away may mollify him. Having a high hedge between you will help (but if he get horses and they eat your hedge that won't help relations... experience speaks here). If s/he plans to get horses in the future the bees might be bothering him. There are rumours that a few bee stings can kill a horse. That's not, technically anyway, your problem, because they will be unlikely to be able to prove without doubt that it was your bees that caused any such grief.

In the end bees are pets or livestock, and you can keep livestock (but not pets) where you like till they are ruled to be a nuisance by a court. That's my understanding anyway. So it may, incidentally, be a bit of a hobby, but actually they are feeding you/providing you with produce, and that's allowed anywhere it isn't specifically outlawed (like new smelly livestock building aren't allowed near houses). The number doesn't matter - that's just the enforcement officer trying to get rid of the problem quickly.

The BBKA might be able to advise: taking out an insurance policy with the NFU might also get you some legal advice. Full-on legal advice will probably be expensive.

As to where to go: mostly wait and see, and don't let it bother you.

 

[Wilco]

Are the hives close to the neighbour's boundary? He/she may be thinking you will expand, and at some point start devaluing his land, and/or your bees may 'be a nuisance'. Having them some distance away may mollify him. Having a high hedge between you will help (but if he get horses and they eat your hedge that won't help relations... experience speaks here). If s/he plans to get horses in the future the bees might be bothering him. There are rumours that a few bee stings can kill a horse. That's not, technically anyway, your problem, because they will be unlikely to be able to prove without doubt that it was your bees that caused any such grief.

In the end bees are pets or livestock, and you can keep livestock (but not pets) where you like till they are ruled to be a nuisance by a court. That's my understanding anyway. So it may, incidentally, be a bit of a hobby, but actually they are feeding you/providing you with produce, and that's allowed anywhere it isn't specifically outlawed (like new smelly livestock building aren't allowed near houses). The number doesn't matter - that's just the enforcement officer trying to get rid of the problem quickly.

The BBKA might be able to advise: taking out an insurance policy with the NFU might also get you some legal advice. Full-on legal advice will probably be expensive.

As to where to go: mostly wait and see, and don't let it bother you.

Definitely join BBKA for the insurance given someone's already looking to cause problems.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I know James , I was so shocked , it seems there are no concrete rules just his opinion that the decision will be based on

They do this. They make suggestions in a manner that leads you to think they are speaking authoritatively. Must people don't catch on and just obey.

Actually, there is planning _law_ and everyone, them included, is bound to it. I don't think even a written response will show you the law they are using - they just say 'our legal team advises' or somesuch. But if you can get a good relationship with the planner dept going they'll often supply clues.

A letter or email asking for responses will often get a useful written response, but sometimes they'll say 'you should ask your planning consultant about that'. They are there to enforce the law, not to show you how it works or which bits apply.

But enforcement officers will try to clear their desks by conning you.

 

[Beesnaturally]

not very difficult with some of the rubbish you post

The point having flown over your head as usual.

Lets call it quits now and stop eh?

 

[Anduril]

A nuisance complaint should involve environmental health, from what I have seen in the past. I don't think they would do much, as your hives are behind a fence and would look in good condition. As soon as bees leave the hive they are free to fly wherever they like. As far as horses are concerned, I've had horses in the next field to mine without problem, I have also had horses in the same field as my hives with activities such as show jumping and gymkhanas. A beekeeper I know has his hives on a plot of land in a built up area and next to his plot are stables for horses. Whenever he opens his hives, there are clouds upon clouds of defensive bees that sting the horses multiple times. But that beekeeper likes his bees that way. BS Honeybees had photos on this forum of horses walking passed their hives.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Definitely join BBKA for the insurance

the only benefit really

 

[drex]

I was invited by my friend to keep a couple of bees in a corner of a paddock ( fenced off) at her animal sanctuary where she has about 30 horses. For 6 months there was no problem. Then during an iinspection on an ideal day, I looked up to see my friend rounding up frantic horses, being attacked by bees. SSince then I inspect before the horses go out.

Incidentally she has an ongoing dispute with a neighbour ( not about bees) which has already cost thousands in legal fees

 

[BeeGiner]

I can't help feeling we are hearing only half the story here.
So perhaps this is really what's happened. Your neighbour has a nice view of the paddock. You want to put some beehives on it. Rather than discuss it with your neighbour, and perhaps offer him a few jars of honey to get them on side, you plonk your hives in the paddock and then block their nice view with a fence.
If this is the case then, irrespective of what the law says, you have at best been foolish and perhaps you have been deliberately provocative.
Suggestion: If it's not too late, go and have a chat to the neighbour, find out what they really object to, offer them honey, perhaps offer to re-position the hives and/or remove the fence.
If you don't then, irrespective of what the law says, you will have an enemy who will likely vandalise your hives and ruin your life.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

perhaps this is really what's happened. Your neighbour has a nice view of the paddock. You want to put some beehives on it. Rather than discuss it with your neighbour, and perhaps offer him a few jars of honey to get them on side, you plonk your hives in the paddock and then block their nice view with a fence.
If this is the case then, irrespective of what the law says, you have at best been foolish and perhaps you have been deliberately provocative.

what an utter load of nonsense!

 

[Anduril]

I can't help feeling we are hearing only half the story here.
So perhaps this is really what's happened. Your neighbour has a nice view of the paddock. You want to put some beehives on it. Rather than discuss it with your neighbour, and perhaps offer him a few jars of honey to get them on side, you plonk your hives in the paddock and then block their nice view with a fence.
If this is the case then, irrespective of what the law says, you have at best been foolish and perhaps you have been deliberately provocative.
Suggestion: If it's not too late, go and have a chat to the neighbour, find out what they really object to, offer them honey, perhaps offer to re-position the hives and/or remove the fence.
If you don't then, irrespective of what the law says, you will have an enemy who will likely vandalise your hives and ruin your life.

The fence is around 3 feet in height, standard farming fence, known as stock fencing or sheep fencing with 3 inch rounds.
The neighbour may originally have been a towny and not know the intricacies of rural life. Known many of them who want street lighting in a rural setting.

 

[BeeGiner]

what an utter load of nonsense!

Glad to see your intelligent wit hasn't deserted you jenkinsbrynmair

 

[BeeGiner]

The fence is around 3 feet in height, standard farming fence, known as stock fencing or sheep fencing with 3 inch rounds.
The neighbour may originally have been a towny and not know the intricacies of rural life. Known many of them who want street lighting in a rural setting.

Blimey your "The neighbour may originally have been a towny and not know the intricacies of rural life" is enlightening. You don't know anything about them but already have put them in a little box marked "towny not worth considering".
They may have lived in the countryside all their lives, have you checked?

 

[ericbeaumont]

perhaps this is really what's happened

Let's stick to what we know and not what can be imagined, but talking to the neighbour has got to be a priority (granted, easier said than done).

nuisance complaint

A one-off incident does not constitute a nuisance, a word which has legal meaning. For the term to be valid, a pattern of incidents should be recorded as evidence which show that the neighbour's right to enjoy their property is affected. Seems a long way off in this case.

This is a useful booklet with several horsey incidents and way-back legal precedent for nuisance.

 

[Anduril]

Let's stick to what we know and not what can be imagined, but talking to the neighbour has got to be a priority (granted, easier said than done).


A one-off incident does not constitute a nuisance, a word which has legal meaning. For the term to be valid, a pattern of incidents should be recorded as evidence which show that the neighbour's right to enjoy their property is affected. Seems a long way off in this case.

This is a useful booklet with several horsey incidents and way-back legal precedent for nuisance.

 

[ericbeaumont]

perhaps this is really what's happened

have you checked?

None of us know the whole story (not even the OP) but emotive conjecture is no help.