The battle of the Alamo

[taurus]

Today I re-fought the battle of the Alamo with my grumpy hive. I thought I'd catalogue events in the hope it may be of some use to other newbies taking on a grumpy colony.

This was a swarm I took in for a neighbouring beek. They've been fine until the last week when they got aggressive during inspections with excessive following. Since they are in our garden I am not tolerating those kind of antics - so they are being re-queened. There is a new queen arriving tomorrow so the question was how to introduce her:

Put her cage straight in - or - use a cage on the comb method - or do it via a nuc.

I went for the last option on the grounds that:
A) Introducing her to a nuc might mean she has more chance of being accepted.

B) If it fails I've still got the old queen to keep the colony going whilst i think what to try next.

First job was to split the hive into two nucs. They must have known what my intentions were because as soon as the lid was off they went mad. At which point mistake no.1 - I'd forgotten to clear the super of bees. D'oh!

So the old queen and 4 frames are in a nuc with the entrance sealed. The remaining frames are in the current brood box with a clearer board emptying the super. Tomorrow I'll put those into another nuc and then introduce the new queen.

We shall see......

 

[Erichalfbee]

Have you got a colony that is gentler?
I ask because I would not use the horrid bees to make a nuc

 

[wightbees]

Remember to check those frames for any attempt at making QC whilst Queenless, do this before new Queen goes in.

 

[Millet]

Today I re-fought the battle of the Alamo with my grumpy hive. I thought I'd catalogue events in the hope it may be of some use to other newbies taking on a grumpy colony.

This was a swarm I took in for a neighbouring beek. They've been fine until the last week when they got aggressive during inspections with excessive following. Since they are in our garden I am not tolerating those kind of antics - so they are being re-queened. There is a new queen arriving tomorrow so the question was how to introduce her:

Put her cage straight in - or - use a cage on the comb method - or do it via a nuc.

I went for the last option on the grounds that:
A) Introducing her to a nuc might mean she has more chance of being accepted.

B) If it fails I've still got the old queen to keep the colony going whilst i think what to try next.

First job was to split the hive into two nucs. They must have known what my intentions were because as soon as the lid was off they went mad. At which point mistake no.1 - I'd forgotten to clear the super of bees. D'oh!

So the old queen and 4 frames are in a nuc with the entrance sealed. The remaining frames are in the current brood box with a clearer board emptying the super. Tomorrow I'll put those into another nuc and then introduce the new queen.

We shall see......

Can you not just catch the Queen and stick her back in the original hive that way you will have a Nuc without a Queen without having to make another Nuc. and the Nuc for the new Queen should have emerging brood who will accept her straight away, or have a read this wrong ?, probably..

 

[taurus]

Can you not just catch the Queen and stick her back in the original hive that way you will have a Nuc without a Queen without having to make another Nuc.

Actually that is a rather good idea. I'll do it later. More excitement!

 

[taurus]

Have you got a colony that is gentler?
I ask because I would not use the horrid bees to make a nuc

I am not trying to make increase, if I was doing that I'd have used one of the other hives who are well behaved. The aim of the exercise is to see if a savage colony can be saved through being re-queened. The alternative is destroying them.

 

[Swarm]

Erichalfbee offered the advice because horrid colonies are notorious for killing introduced queens.
If you create a nuc from gentle bees, you can unite with the evil ones later.

 

[taurus]

The snag is time, either I can do something about this hive swiftly or they have to go. So it has to be a direct attempt to requeen. The fact they are very defensive is the reason for attempting via a nuc.

If it works then I'll be happy to have saved the colony. But I only took them in to help a neighbour - I don't want so many bees in the garden and certainly can't have bees that follow.

I had another swarm who were very well behaved but I've just given them away to a friend who lost all his bees.

I have a lovely colony of Buckfast bees who are totally docile and another of black bees who are more feisty but do not follow and ignore people walking about the garden. If I can get this swarm anywhere near the other two I'll be pleased to have made the difference.

 

[Millet]

The snag is time, either I can do something about this hive swiftly or they have to go. So it has to be a direct attempt to requeen. The fact they are very defensive is the reason for attempting via a nuc.

If it works then I'll be happy to have saved the colony. But I only took them in to help a neighbour - I don't want so many bees in the garden and certainly can't have bees that follow.

I had another swarm who were very well behaved but I've just given them away to a friend who lost all his bees.

I have a lovely colony of Buckfast bees who are totally docile and another of black bees who are more feisty but do not follow and ignore people walking about the garden. If I can get this swarm anywhere near the other two I'll be pleased to have made the difference.

You seem to be doing something right so keep doing what you are doing, and good luck with the Re-Queening..

 

[For want of a better word]

Always seems to be a problem when folk attempt to keep bees in close proximity to the public or to neighbors.
Perhaps some common sense is in need when selling bees to new beekeepers... ask the question... where are you keeping them?

As for buckfast hybrids... a caveat for beginners is... they can turn very nasty is badly handled.. as can any honeybee sub species.

Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

As for buckfast hybrids... a caveat for beginners is... they can turn very nasty is badly handled.. as can any honeybee sub species.

Some of the F2's and F3's can be a little feisty, but very nasty....no, not really. Very nasty is a term I reserve for some the local mongrel bees around here, a feisty Buckfast F2 is a pussy cat in comparison. But you need to keep both types in the same apiary to appreciate the difference as I did..........and also appreciate the differences in honey yields.

 

[taurus]

Always seems to be a problem when folk attempt to keep bees in close proximity to the public or to neighbors.
Perhaps some common sense is in need when selling bees to new beekeepers... ask the question... where are you keeping them?

As for buckfast hybrids... a caveat for beginners is... they can turn very nasty is badly handled.. as can any honeybee sub species.

Yeghes da

That's why I was careful when I sourced my own bees and so far they've been fine. I took this colony in to bale out a neighbouring beekeeper whose bees were constantly swarming and he had nowhere to put them.

It's also why I passed on the later well behaved swarm to a friend, because I don't want too any bees in the garden.

I could just have destroyed this lot once they showed their true colours but I'd like to take a shot at calming them down. They are fine to walk around in shirt sleeves normally. It's just when I inspect them they get nasty.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Some of the F2's and F3's can be a little feisty, but very nasty....no, not really. Very nasty is a term I reserve for some the local mongrel bees around here, a feisty Buckfast F2 is a pussy cat in comparison. But you need to keep both types in the same apiary to appreciate the difference as I did..........and also appreciate the differences in honey yields.

My nasty bees are much more productive. I used to think that it was because they might be interfered with less but I'm not so sure.
Anyway, I have a very nice queen en route and my horrid bees will be no longer after harvest.

 

[Millet]

My nasty bees are much more productive. I used to think that it was because they might be interfered with less but I'm not so sure.
Anyway, I have a very nice queen en route and my horrid bees will be no longer after harvest.

My nasty bees are not a patch on some of the nicer bees as far as honey production goes, the amount of honey i had seen extracted from nice bees last week left me gob smacked, if i ever managed to produce 5% of the spring crop i seen it would still be too much for me at he moment.

 

[Erichalfbee]

My nasty bees are not a patch on some of the nicer bees as far as honey production goes, the amount of honey i had seen extracted .

That's what I'm hoping

 

[Beefriendly]

My nasty bees are much more productive.

But what strain/type are they?
My nasty local mongrel bees produced bugger all honey and this was over several years. Whereas my calm placid laid back Buckfast produce shed loads even in poor conditions, like this cold spring.
It's partly a numbers game as the locals struggle to fill 6 National frames with brood whereas my Buckfast/F1's etc are mainly double brood hives and bursting with bees so much bigger work force. Although interestingly my Amm hive which is of similar size to many of my Buckfast hives and bursting with bees only filled one super this spring, compared to around 4 per Buckfast hive in that apiary. Her daughter an Amm F1 produced bugger all and turned quite feisty.
I can only assume that the Amm I have were bred for purity of race and not for honey gathering ability, which is a trait that was selected for by Br Adam as he developed his Buckfast lines

 

[taurus]

In my case the naughty hive was otherwise the most amazing colony. Incredible brood pattern and they were bringing in honey faster than all the others. Left alone they ignored anyone around, I could sit right alongside the hive and work on frames without any bother. But the minute you approached them waving a hive tool and they exploded.

Anyway the new queen arrived, I removed the escorts and put the cage into the nuc. I'll leave alone for 48 hours before removing the cover on the fondant.

 

[taurus]

An update - so you can tell me where I am going wrong!

Following advice I split the grumpy hive into two nucs. Old queen was moved to a different position. Queenless nuc left on the original stand.

New queen arrived Tuesday, attendants removed, placed in nuc.

Wednesday evening the tape was removed from the fondant. The bees seemed to be moving freely around the cage, ie not balling it.

The snag was that the flying bees were clustering around the nuc with the new queen on the original stand. Being older bees they were still tetchy.

I therefore swapped the positions of the nucs. New queen on a new stand, old queen back on the original stand. That evening I closed up the nuc with the old queen and moved it to a remote location on a site where a friend has a development. (A temporary measure whilst he is waiting for planning permission.)

By Friday morning that left the nuc with the new queen in it on the new stand. There were still some flying bees milling around the old stand (now vacant) - I guess they had been in the new nuc?

Last night I removed the old stand so that position is now vacant. No sign of bees milling round the area this morning.

So by now the new queen has either been released or killed. The paperwork that came with her said not to look into the nuc for a week, then check for eggs. I reckon I can do no good by taking a look so it is best to just leave well alone and see what happens.

I inspected the other hives yesterday and was able to do so without being pestered by bees from the grumpy swarm bothering me - much more relaxing.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I presume your original hive had brood in it?
The flying bees are the most aggressive so I would not have put the new queen with them. I would have split them one frame of brood and the old queen on the old stand with the flyers. New nuc with the brood made up half an hour before, giving the flyers time to return home, then introduce your new queen.

 

[taurus]

Thank you, that makes sense.