Test Frame

[Erichalfbee]

Just a little note about test frames as there seem to be lots of possibly queenless colonies about. Presumably caught out with early swarm preps and a new queen not getting home after mating.
A test frame should have small larvae. Eggs will be eaten. Even a beginner should be able to spot queen cells three days after introduction. It’s important to remember that if the bees draw queen cells then there is no queen but a colony with no queen will not always respond to a test frame. I’ve had a hive this spring make queen cells on the third test frame.

 

[Antipodes]

Just a little note about test frames as there seem to be lots of possibly queenless colonies about. Presumably caught out with early swarm preps and a new queen not getting home after mating.
A test frame should have small larvae. Eggs will be eaten. Even a beginner should be able to spot queen cells three days after introduction. It’s important to remember that if the bees draw queen cells then there is no queen but a colony with no queen will not always respond to a test frame. I’ve had a hive this spring make queen cells on the third test frame.

Do you know or have any theories as to why a colony with no queen will not always respond (well...initially at least!)?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you know or have any theories as to why a colony with no queen will not always respond (well...initially at least!)?

Not really but like a lot of bee responses large colonies tend to respond more slowly. Look at how fast a small cast swarm gets it’s virgin mated

 

[elainemary]

Newly Polished cells (very shiny and mirror-like) in a hive are also an indication of a young queen being present and perhaps not mated yet or still maturing, so can look for these alongside the test frame. Didn’t know about the test frame not always responding.

@Antipodes Often wondered why queens in small colonies mate so quickly. I’m guessing it must be down to the fact that they know the colony is small so time is of the essence, to have the right numbers and age of bees to rear her brood, before they age too much……Or maybe it’s explained by the fact the colony is small, so they are more aware of her presence quicker as her pheromones start to develop, so push her out to mate faster, than in a large colony.

Bees are amazing

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you know or have any theories as to why a colony with no queen will not always respond

because they're bees, and that's what they do

 

[pargyle]

Do you know or have any theories as to why a colony with no queen will not always respond (well...initially at least!)?

Probably residual queen pheremones - either in the colony or possibly on the test frame. If you accidentally kill a queen they sometimes take a couple of days before they get on with making a new one ... As JBM says... they are bees, occasionally they do things that don't make any sense ..I've had a colony that was queenless that refused absolutely to make a new queen .... I set up a nuc from another hive who had made a few queen cells ... introduced a frame from them with a queen cell on it and away they went ... bonkers.

 

[Antipodes]

Probably residual queen pheremones - either in the colony or possibly on the test frame. If you accidentally kill a queen they sometimes take a couple of days before they get on with making a new one ... As JBM says... they are bees, occasionally they do things that don't make any sense ..I've had a colony that was queenless that refused absolutely to make a new queen .... I set up a nuc from another hive who had made a few queen cells ... introduced a frame from them with a queen cell on it and away they went ... bonkers.

Interesting about the queen cell frame!
My theory is that they most probably (sometimes!) don't make emergency cells on a test frame after a period of queenlessness due to low brood pheromones from lack of open brood. I guess I'd expect a recently queenless colony to make emergency cells (say if it had some older but still open brood) but I'd be somewhat surprised if a colony that was queenless for some time (say with no brood left at all, or just the odd bit of capped brood) would make emergency cells from the addition of just one frame of brood.

 

[enrico]

Just a little note about test frames as there seem to be lots of possibly queenless colonies about. Presumably caught out with early swarm preps and a new queen not getting home after mating.
A test frame should have small larvae. Eggs will be eaten. Even a beginner should be able to spot queen cells three days after introduction. It’s important to remember that if the bees draw queen cells then there is no queen but a colony with no queen will not always respond to a test frame. I’ve had a hive this spring make queen cells on the third test frame.

I am surprised at the statement that eggs WILL be eaten. When I scrape away a piece of comb back to the foundation under eggs that is where the queen cells get built! Do you know they will only use young larvae?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am surprised at the statement that eggs WILL be eaten. When I scrape away a piece of comb back to the foundation under eggs that is where the queen cells get built! Do you know they will only use young larvae?

Ok more likely to be eaten
Anecdotal though
I must say that when I do put in a test frame the bees make queen cells on the larvae in preference to waiting for eggs to become larvae
Perhaps giving them a frame if eggs gives them no choice?

 

[enrico]

Ok more likely to be eaten
Anecdotal though
I must say that when I do put in a test frame the bees make queen cells on the larvae in preference to waiting for eggs to become larvae
Perhaps giving them a frame if eggs gives them no choice?

Thanks, just wondered

 

[Sutty]

Interesting about the queen cell frame!
My theory is that they most probably (sometimes!) don't make emergency cells on a test frame after a period of queenlessness due to low brood pheromones from lack of open brood. I guess I'd expect a recently queenless colony to make emergency cells (say if it had some older but still open brood) but I'd be somewhat surprised if a colony that was queenless for some time (say with no brood left at all, or just the odd bit of capped brood) would make emergency cells from the addition of just one frame of brood.

If that theory is correct you might be able to improve the chance of them making queen cells by adding some ocimene to the hive to simulate brood pheromone.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If that theory is correct you might be able to improve the chance of them making queen cells by adding some ocimene to the hive to simulate brood pheromone.

I use that to prevent laying workers

 

[Boston Bees]

Ok more likely to be eaten
Anecdotal though
I must say that when I do put in a test frame the bees make queen cells on the larvae in preference to waiting for eggs to become larvae
Perhaps giving them a frame if eggs gives them no choice?

Interesting blog post from the Apiarist today - apparently researchers found that what bees prefer to build emergency cells on is eggs, not larvae. Who knows.

 

[user 20297]

Interesting blog post from the Apiarist today - apparently researchers found that what bees prefer to build emergency cells on is eggs, not larvae. Who knows.

View attachment 32253

....so who's right?

 

[JamezF]

....so who's right?

The bees.

James

 

[BaconWizard]

I use that to prevent laying workers

I arrived here because I’ve been researching pheromones and terpenes; have you tried using it to slow down swarming at all? Theoretically it not only signifies young brood being present and attracts young nurses, but also moves them-on in maturity toward being foragers.
Just curious.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I arrived here because I’ve been researching pheromones and terpenes; have you tried using it to slow down swarming at all?

No
I have tried many manipulations in my beekeeping life. There are no real shortcuts. You have to manage swarming properly or you lose bees