Test frame now with two small QC’s

[GaryH]

I thought I had a Qeeenless hive. Put a test frame in and sure enough there are two capped Queen cells however they are very small. ( before anyone asks they’re not drone cells)
Could one of these still be viable.

 

[ericbeaumont]

thought I had a Qeeenless hive

What was the reason? Whatever happened, were there QCs in the hive and on what date?

Could one of these still be viable

A photo would help us have a guesstimate.

 

[GaryH]

What was the reason? Whatever happened, were there QCs in the hive and on what date?


A photo would help us have a guesstimate.

Sorry no pics of the QC’s

Whilst I was on holiday a fellow beek was helping but my only hive swarmed. However, the Queen was clipped so it must’ve been a cast swarm. At that time my colleague apparently released a Virgin Queen emerging from a cell into the colony and put the clipped queen into a nuc. He also split the colony too. Result is three colonies. With the ubiquitous clipped Buckfast Queen in one.

Upon my return from holiday I put a test frame in one colony and the bees did not make any queen cells. I have since seen a mated queen and BIAS in this colony

I put a test frame in the remaining colony (in question) and the result was two queen cells that are now capped. They are smaller than any other queen I’ve seen before hence my question?
Could it be that the test frame that I placed in this hive did not have any viable eggs/larvae resulting in underdeveloped queen cells??

(even though I thought I saw eggs I may have been mistaken and the Bees may have made a queen cell from young larvae)

 

[enrico]

Sorry no pics of the QC’s

Whilst I was on holiday a fellow beek was helping but my only hive swarmed. However, the Queen was clipped so it must’ve been a cast swarm. At that time my colleague apparently released a Virgin Queen emerging from a cell into the colony and put the clipped queen into a nuc. He also split the colony too. Result is three colonies. With the ubiquitous clipped Buckfast Queen in one.

Upon my return from holiday I put a test frame in one colony and the bees did not make any queen cells. I have since seen a mated queen and BIAS in this colony

I put a test frame in the remaining colony (in question) and the result was two queen cells that are now capped. They are smaller than any other queen I’ve seen before hence my question?
Could it be that the test frame that I placed in this hive did not have any viable eggs/larvae resulting in underdeveloped queen cells??

(even though I thought I saw eggs I may have been mistaken and the Bees may have made a queen cell from young larvae)

I would remove them and put in a proper test frame. Find a cluster of cells in the centre of the frame with eggs in, scrape the comb back to the foundation immediately below the cells with the eggs in about 3 cm across and the depth of your hive tool. 99 percent certain that is where they will make nice queen cells if they are indeed queen less. They will be indented into the surrounding comb so less likely to damage. You are guessing at the moment which isn't helping you reach a decision

 

[GaryH]

I would remove them and put in a proper test frame. Find a cluster of cells in the centre of the frame with eggs in, scrape the comb back to the foundation immediately below the cells with the eggs in about 3 cm across and the depth of your hive tool. 99 percent certain that is where they will make nice queen cells if they are indeed queen less. They will be indented into the surrounding comb so less likely to damage. You are guessing at the moment which isn't helping you reach a decision

Thanks that’s new knowledge for me. I’ll try it tomorrow

 

[Eyeman]

If this colony with the 2 small QC was weak it may partly explain the poor quality QC

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

my only hive swarmed. However, the Queen was clipped so it must’ve been a cast swarm.

No, it was still the first swarm out so a prime swarm.
People wrongly assume that a swarm led by a virgin queen must be called a cast. A cast swarm is the second swarm out, the third a colt and the fourth a filly.

 

[Sutty]

No, it was still the first swarm out so a prime swarm.
People wrongly assume that a swarm led by a virgin queen must be called a cast. A cast swarm is the second swarm out, the third a colt and the fourth a filly.

Probably not the first swarm out if the queen was clipped, but the first one not to return.
What that does to the nomenclature I have no idea!
Maybe different terminology would be more helpful.

 

[ericbeaumont]

result was two queen cells that are now capped. They are smaller than any other queen I’ve seen before

Dawned on me that you may be referring to emergency queen cells, which are usually smaller than swarm or supersedure cells. If that is so, you are mistaken if you believe that they are sub-par: the QC goes right back to the foundation and standard virgins will emerge.

Take a photo tomorrow?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Probably not the first swarm out if the queen was clipped, but the first one not to return.

thus the ones that went out with the clipped queen is not considered a swarm as they returned (as all bees do every day) to the hive, the first (prime) swarm is the one that left with a queen not to return, regardless of her deflowerment

 

[GaryH]

thus the ones that went out with the clipped queen is not considered a swarm as they returned (as all bees do every day) to the hive, the first (prime) swarm is the one that left with a queen not to return, regardless of her deflowerment

Question was whether small queen cells would be viable and this has been answered by someone who said they would be Emergency queen cells which makes sense because I put a test frame in

 

[madasafish]

Even small Qs can be good if properly mated..

 

[Swarm]

Question was whether small queen cells would be viable and this has been answered by someone who said they would be Emergency queen cells which makes sense because I put a test frame in

Yes, some emergency queens can be very good.

 

[GaryH]

Dawned on me that you may be referring to emergency queen cells, which are usually smaller than swarm or supersedure cells. If that is so, you are mistaken if you believe that they are sub-par: the QC goes right back to the foundation and standard virgins will emerge.

Take a photo tomorrow?

Update
I have a Virgin Queen she’s tiny, not such bigger than a worker. I didn’t kill her and left her unmarked.

When I had these tiny Emergency QCs I decided to order a BMH mated Queen she arrives in 7 days.
My intention is to find this tiny Q and put her in a Nuc making the original cololy hopelessly Q- less. And add the bought- in Q
Problem is how do I stop the VQ from returning to her original hive.
If I can’t find her what can I do to set up a new colony before the new Q arrives
Do I need to kill the Virgin as I don’t have another apiary
Thanks

 

[Sutty]

I'd make up a nuc for the bought queen from another hive. Wait for the virgin to get mated and start laying, then if you don't want her dispatch and unite with the new nuc.

 

[rolande]

...

 

[enrico]

I'd make up a nuc for the bought queen from another hive. Wait for the virgin to get mated and start laying, then if you don't want her dispatch and unite with the new nuc.

I agree with Sutty, don't go moving a virgin queen. See how she fares.

 

[GaryH]

So best method of making up a nuc. In the same apiary

 

[Swarm]

Couple of frames of sealed/emerging brood and the bees on them, a frame of stores, a spare frame of comb if you have it and one of foundation. A shake of bees and don't rush to close them, allowing any older bees to fly back home, close them up and move to their permanent site on the stand. Add the queen in her cage and give them a small feed of light syrup.

 

[GaryH]

Thanks guys very helpful