Syrup

[Finman]

It's not the same with imperial pints as these are 20oz ie 1lb 4oz.

It is 2:1 in U.S. Pints as these are 1lb.


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Is that really so............ Diffcult

 

[B+.]

I'm not sure where this 2:1 ratio came from. Does anyone know?

The purpose is to provide a nectar substitute which the bees can store for winter use. Surely, the more concentrated the better provided that the bees can cope with it

Using metric units (and lets face it, sugar comes in 1 or 2kg bags...its a long time since they were 1lb bags!) 2kg of sugar = 4.40925 lbs
2:1 ratio 4.40925 / 2 = 2.204625 pints which is equal to 1.2528034761 litres
So, strictly speaking, it should be 2Kg of sugar to 1.25 litres of water. This means my syrup is 25% more concentrated but, using the pressure cooker, it all dissolved.

 

[beebot]

A burst pipe on what?

Ah, see you edited your post, would not be a problem, plenty of water in the river, not likely to have a burst pipe and no water supply for a month or so anyway.

Yep not likely but who would have thought people in Lancaster would haves to boil their water for weeks.

 

[Finman]

Using metric units (and lets face it, sugar comes in 1 or 2kg bags...its a long time since they were 1lb bags!) 2kg of sugar = 4.40925 lbs
2:1 ratio 4.40925 / 2 = 2.204625 pints which is equal to 1.2528034761 litres
So, strictly speaking, it should be 2Kg of sugar to 1.25 litres of water. This means my syrup is 25% more concentrated but, using the pressure cooker, it all dissolved.

Pressure cooker....

I got years ago an advice from this forum, that use old type pulsator loundry machine to make Winter syrup.

- buy 50 kg Sugar from Lidl
- fill the pulsator up to water mark
- pour boiling water into Sugar up to water Mark
- start the machine

Syrup will be about 40C and I can fill 8 litre feeding box at once.

If nights are cold, I put news paper sheets over the feeder that it stays warm so that bees can suck it up to end.

A colony in one Langstroth box needs 2 feeding boxes syrup. If brood are almost away, it takes 2 days when bees have filled the combs.

Feed the hive enough, that you need not think about starving.

.

 

[B+.]

Feed the hive enough, that you need not think about starving.

.

My original purpose was to provide a method that the 1st year beginner could use to dissolve sugar at the required ratio for winter feed (i.e. small scale)

 

[Jeff M]

I'm not sure where this 2:1 ratio came from. Does anyone know?

The purpose is to provide a nectar substitute which the bees can store for winter use. Surely, the more concentrated the better provided that the bees can cope with it

Using metric units (and lets face it, sugar comes in 1 or 2kg bags...its a long time since they were 1lb bags!) 2kg of sugar = 4.40925 lbs
2:1 ratio 4.40925 / 2 = 2.204625 pints which is equal to 1.2528034761 litres
So, strictly speaking, it should be 2Kg of sugar to 1.25 litres of water. This means my syrup is 25% more concentrated but, using the pressure cooker, it all dissolved.

When I was at school 1 litre of water weighed 1kg so a metric 2:1 ratio would still be 2kg of sugar to 1litre of water.

 

[B+.]

When I was at school 1 litre of water weighed 1kg so a metric 2:1 ratio would still be 2kg of sugar to 1litre of water.

I got those numbers from a web-conversion tool. I really must remember to engage my brain before typing

 

[Finman]

My original purpose was to provide a method that the 1st year beginner could use to dissolve sugar at the required ratio for winter feed (i.e. small scale)

And ghese adult people are not able to do that? Serious?


I have told here, that in Finland every 3 y old children learn to disolve Sugar to water when they drink their morning tea. When mom turns her eyes away, darlings try to make syrup..

Then every Finnish adult make coffee in the morning and measure the water and coffee.

I think that car driving licence should be taken away from those guys, whi are not able to mix sugar and water. I wonder, how adult prople can make any food to themselves when they are not able to measure stuffs.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm not sure where this 2:1 ratio came from. Does anyone know?

The purpose is to provide a nectar substitute which the bees can store for winter use. Surely, the more concentrated the better provided that the bees can cope with it

Manley used syrup at a 3 pounds to one pint ratio -anything thicker in his experience the bees couldn't handle. He would just stir the sugar into boiling water, keeping the heat on if needed to help it all dissolve

 

[Finman]

I got those numbers from a web-conversion tool. I really must remember to engage my brain before typing

Never mind...
I have read here many times, that when bottle says that it has 4.2% oxalic acid, it actually has 3,5%.

And strawberry on cake: Mesh insulates better than ply board.

 

[B+.]

I think that car driving licence should be taken away from those guys.

Excuse me for trying to help.

 

[B+.]

keeping the heat on if needed to help it all dissolve

Wouldn't it just caramelise?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Then every Finnish adult make coffee in the morning and measure the water and coffee.

yes but vodka does dissolve easier than sugar

 

[Finman]

yes but vodka does dissolve easier than sugar

That is true in Sub Saharan regions, but not here.

In Finland's Lapland were have an advice: Do not carry water to arctic hills.

 

[enrico]

Just to confuse things, when I started I never fed in autumn but out a block of boiled sugar on the feed hole. It was 2:1 boiled until it showed hard ball on thermometer and allowed to cool into a solid block. That's all I ever fed them, put it on at start of winter and it would last them until the spring. They would just lick it when they needed it!
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Wouldn't it just caramelise?

it is better to make the syrup thicker, and three pounds of sugar to one pint of water may be none too thick. if you make it muck thicker than this, bees do not take it so well.................................................................................... Bring the water to the boil and at once pour in the sugar and stir until dissolved.Be careful not to allow it to burn, and it is better to take your pan off the fire while stirring in the sugar as this will all dissolve in the hot water very quickly, if kept stirred;but you can replace it on the fire until all the sugar has melted and the syrup is quite clear, stirring unceasingly all the time

ROB Manley - Bee-keeping In Britain (1948)

 

[itma]

I know some beginners will be tearing their hair out trying to dissolve 2kg of granulated cane sugar into 1 litre of water to make syrup which they can feed to their bees at the moment....so here's how I do it

pour:
2 litres of water
4kg sugar

into a 6 liter pressure cooker and stir. Apply a little heat on the hob and bring it up to pressure (mine operates at 7lb pressure) . By this time, the pressure will have helped dissolve the sugar and it will be a completely smooth syrup. No granulated sugar left that didn't go into suspension!

I hope this helps someone out there.

Sorry but I think this is UNhelpful advice for beginners.
And being the beginners section the advice should be straightforward and uncontroversial.


The amount of white sugar (sucrose) that will STAY dissolved when it is cooled down to top-of-hive Autumn temperatures, say 15C, can be found from standard scientific data.

At 15C the limit of solubility is 66% (two thirds of the weight is sugar, one third water, so 2:1 in metric units).
http://www.sugartech.com/solubility/index.php
If the temperature of the syrup falls even slightly below 15C, then excess sugar will be crystallised out of solution.
In real world feeder conditions, it isn't going to stay supersaturated for long.

Making the syrup too strong has a few disadvantages.
1/ In a rapid-type feeder (bees up and over), you'll waste sugar - the bees can't get at the stuff dumped out of solution.
2/ In a contact-type feeder (bees feeding from underneath), the likelihood is that the sugar crystals will block the bees access to the syrup, because they sink to the bottom of the feeder.
3/ In order to get the sugar to dissolve in the first place, you'll have to heat the water (and maybe even the sugar) to be pretty hot. The risk there is that you accelerate the chemical breakdown of sugar, forming the bee-toxic substance called (for short) HMF. HMF is brown and any browniness of the syrup (even straw-coloured) indicates that it has been overheated.
4/ You need to keep stirring to prevent the sugar crystals from 'burning' onto the hot pan. And you cannot do that in a pressure cooker! So using a pressure cooker risks making lots of HMF and other chemicals from the decomposition of sucrose.

At 110C (approx pressure cooker temperature - it is increased boiling temperature, due to pressurisation - not pressure alone - that speeds things up) sucrose (white sugar) solubility rises to almost 85%. That means that, under pressure, you could potentially get more than 5kg of sugar to dissolve in 1 kg (or litre) of water.
However, that means that after cooling back to 15C, you'd have about 3kg of sugar crystals reappearing!


IF there is an important lesson to learn it is that when British beekeepers of the past were talking about "2 to 1" they were NOT using metric units!
They were using pounds for the sugar and pints for the water.
In metric, a kilogram of water is the same as a litre of water. But a pound of water IS NOT the same as a pint of water.
It was two of one measure for the sugar to one of a DIFFERENT measure for the water.
Using "2:1" with pounds and pints makes a weaker syrup than 2:1 metric.
It actually comes out to be about 62%.
Which dissolves easily, and doesn't produce crystals even at 2C.

If you want to make up strong syrup using metric units, make it up 60:40 (our continental friends call strong syrup "3:2" - which is 60:40). If you like more complicated arithmetic, use 62:38 ... but not 2:1 metric (66:33 is harder to dissolve, and risks crystallising out).


If you want stronger syrup still, the best advice for beginners is to buy some proper commercial bee syrup. (Not just High Fructose Corn Syrup.)
Due to being composed mainly of Glucose and Fructose - like honey - (and not Sucrose) these commercial bee syrups can have a sugar content up around 75%.
They don't ferment (unless they are diluted, for example with condensation) and excess can be stored for use next year.
Being stronger and not needing bee-processing to glucose and fructose, they can be taken faster and later than sucrose (white sugar) syrup. This may matter if you are after a late crop (for example from heather).
Otherwise, white sugar syrup at 3:2 (metric) is simple and cheap.

Beginners, with few hives, have no need of mixing up large quantities.
A kilo and a half of sugar to a litre of water is a simple and easily managed batch.
There is no need to make this any more complicated than that, until later in the season, perhaps October, when any hives still underweight at that point would benefit from a different dietary assistance.

 

[B+.]

Beginners, with few hives, have no need of mixing up large quantities.

I agree. I don't mind being proven wrong with facts so long as they are facts...and my objective was to provide guidance to beginners preparing for their first winter. However, this seems to have generated quite a debate, even among beekeepers who've been around the block a few times. This suggests to me that the subject is poorly understood. I'm grateful to anyone who can provide definitive information.

w.r.t. the Ambrosia I fed to my bees last year, it was in Paradise Honey hive top feeders which are high density poly. I see no reason why it should have fermented.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I use a berco tea ern to make syrup in 25 ltr batches.
About 70 degrees and the sugar dissolves easily whatever strength you make.

An approximate guide
10 kg of sugar made into heavy syrup gives a volume of about 25 ltrs provides 15 kg of stores and is equivalent to 12kg of honey.

It does also say 1.25 ltr to 2kg of sugar not 1 ltr.

2:1 came about after research found that a 60% sugar solution was the best to feed the bees for them to process it and store it quickly.
1ltr to 2kg gives a 66.6%
1.25 ltr to 2kg gives a 61.5%

The info was from a bbka publication.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

well, I've always mixed my sugar syrup 2 kilos to 1 litre water - and never had problems with re-crystalisation on cooling - obviously Manley didn't either. If the bees are taking it down in their usual fashion, it doesn't stay there long enough to crystallize - if they're a bit slow in taking it down, maybe they don't need it.
Same as all this nonsense about them not drawing comb if you give them thick syrup - somebody forgot to tell our bees that - I don't faff around thinning it down - mine just get given leftover syrup from the winter (usually thymolised) and they draw comb like a dream.
The thing that confuses beginners is this obsession with measuring everything to the nth degree - it matter not a jot whether it's a bit thinner, or a bit thicker the bees won't turn their noses up at it if they need it.
Beekeeping isn't an exact science - the bees make sure of that!!