Supers over winter?

[Sir Quej]

Hi

I have a hive with a super on it at the moment. It ony has three of the frames in the super that have been drawn and filled with stores. In the main brood body, there is one 14x12 frame that is not drawn at all. They obviously havent drawn it because of the super above them.

My quandry is what to do? Do I remove the super to encourage them to draw and fill the brood frame? Is it ok to leave a half filled super on over winter? Could I remove the undrawn super frames and fill the gap with insulation?

I'm not bothered about getting any honey from the hive, I'm more bothered about giving the hive the best chance of coming through winter.

I put a feeder on this weekend with 2:1 syrup and intend to feed until they stop taking it.

What would people recommend I do about the super?

Cheers

 

[MuswellMetro]

you could either place it under the brood box or above an open crown board with and empty super between it and brood box

i have one at present in this formation

roof
crown board blocked
super ( with bruised stores)
crown board open
empty super with apiguard tub, 1lb jar of fumidlb Syrup on frame tops
Brood box
floor


and another in a distant copse Apiary

roof
insulation
blocked crown board
eke with apiguard
Brood
half full super
floor

 

[Heather]

Don't feed too much too fast- remember that it is important that Q lays a good brood to see them through- don't block her laying space with syrup. It is a balancing act of feeding.

Put the super above the crown board, with porter escapes removed.
Break any sealed honey and they will take it down to the brood box - then remove super- winter store..then syrup feed.
Do not leave that super on over winter-they will lose heat. Condense the hive to minimum every time. Only BIG colonies need a super left on (under brood box)- and only if bursting with stores.

 

[Sir Quej]

If I put it under the brood box, do I put a queen excluder between it and the brood box? I dont want HRH laying in my nice clean super frames?

 

[Sir Quej]

Don't feed too much too fast- remember that it is important that Q lays a good brood to see them through- don't block her laying space with syrup. It is a balancing act of feeding.

Put the super above the crown board, with porter escapes removed.
Break any sealed honey and they will take it down to the brood box - then remove super- winter store..then syrup feed.
Do not leave that super on over winter-they will lose heat. Condense the hive to minimum every time. Only BIG colonies need a super left on (under brood box)- and only if bursting with stores.

Thanks Heather, so you would go with Floor, Broodbox, open crown board, super, closed crown board, roof?

Do I need a queen excluder to stop HRH getting into the super?

 

[Heather]

The super is above the crown board- she won't go there. No QE.

And to all new bee keepers- NO QUEEN EXCLUDER IN THE HIVE OVER WINTER. If the bees move to a super of stores- she is left behind- and will DIE...sounds basic common sense- but has happened.

 

[Finman]

.
You have a tiny hive.

You shuld restrict the bee space as big as they have now brood.

Take super off. IT is sure that you must do that

Then look, how much they occupye brood frames.
If the hive is full of bees in every corner, it sounds good.

If the hive has not on all frames bees as much, you should take some frames off and look, are they all able to stay inside or are they hanging out.
Put a dummy board into the hive.

When bees are in, start the feeding with 1:2 syrup.

Before that select the combs. Leave the pollen frames inside the hive and take off half drawn combs.

.

 

[Finman]

Thanks Heather, so you would go with Floor, Broodbox, open crown board, super, closed crown board, roof?

Do I need a queen excluder to stop HRH getting into the super?

No super. Your hive is not so big that it need 2 boxes for winter. It makes only problems in wintering.

 

[Tom Bick]

I would be inclined to remove the super and insulate over the crown board, harvest if capped the couple of super frames or extract and feed back to the bees.

I have never successfully got my bees to clear supers over a crown board even with an empty super between and besides in this case it will cause heat loss and it may be more important for the bees to squeeze out more brood so heat retention is required at this time of year if the colony is small.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

When I put a part-empty super over the crown board sometimes they fill it sometimes they empty it!

Put the three part-filled frames on one side of the super and open one porter escape on the other side of the crown board so there's a longer distance to travel. This will encourage the bees to remove the stores downwards.

 

[m100]

The super is above the crown board- she won't go there. No QE.

And to all new bee keepers- NO QUEEN EXCLUDER IN THE HIVE OVER WINTER. If the bees move to a super of stores- she is left behind- and will DIE...sounds basic common sense- but has happened.

Agree with the no queen excluder bit but as the queens will move into a super above a crown board. It may not be possible to get an inspection before the super is filling with brood. Queens will also cross a solid honey arch a few inches high to get into a super during the active season. (Been there done that got the T shirt with all of the above)

So super with bruised stores under the broodbox (it's a 14 x 12 remember) narrow entrance maybe an inch wide and easily defended, carry on feeding until overwintering hive weight is achieved.

If not feeding, part filled supers above an empty super (no frames) above a crownboard / clearer board with open holes, bruise the stores in the super, leave for a week. If they don't do anything with it then put it under the brood box and close the entrances down to a couple of bee spaces.

Larger deadspace by having a super (empty or full) under a hive doesn't increase heat loss and in my experience may improve overwinteriing by reducing wind chilling of the cluster especially if using an open mesh floor that has a massive access slot for the floor insert.

 

[Sir Quej]

This probably sounds really thick but what do you mean by "Bruise the stores"

 

[m100]

Bruising is just breaking the wax capping so the contents of the cell are exposed, either with a hive tool or with an uncapping fork dragged across the surface.

 

[Sir Quej]

thanks..... beginners eh ??? lol

 

[andy-glide]

I have an identical situation BB nearly full and 3-4 frames in a supper which I intend to leave on top of the BB over winter. Possibly would be better to move to the bottom but trying to avoid lifting a heavy BB.

Happy as to the reason for removing the QE but confused why put an empty supper between the BB and the half full supper.

 

[itma]

I have an identical situation BB nearly full and 3-4 frames in a supper which I intend to leave on top of the BB over winter. Possibly would be better to move to the bottom but trying to avoid lifting a heavy BB.

Happy as to the reason for removing the QE but confused why put an empty supper between the BB and the half full supper.

Andy, the idea is to get the bees to 'rob' the part-filled frames down into the brood box. So you try and create the illusion that those frames are 'outside' while they are really inside, safe from real robbers. Putting some extra distance (by means of the totally empty shallow box) strengthens the illusion that its outside their hive.
As does reducing the size of the hole in the crownboard.
Reducing the entrance reduces the tendency to general robbing!

With a National (rather than 14x12) brood box, I'd suggest sticking the shallow underneath. Bruising them should (!) mean that the stores would be swiftly taken up into the brood. Its not all that heavy! However a 14x12 might be ...

 

[itma]

I have a hive with a super on it at the moment. It ony has three of the frames in the super that have been drawn and filled with stores. In the main brood body, there is one 14x12 frame that is not drawn at all. They obviously havent drawn it because of the super above them.

...

Not sure where the idea has come from that this is a "tiny" hive/colony.

A 14x12 (different to an ordinary single-brood National) does not *need* to be rammed full of stores for overwintering.
Have you got room in a freezer for those 3 frames?