Supercedure and swarm cells at the same time

[Gilberdyke John]

Frankly, he's done a lot for me personally .... in my early years of beekeeping he was very helptful and since then I see the wisdom in his posts ... his advice (public and private) was always spot on but he never spoon feeds - he makes you think and in beekeeping, if you don't learn to think about your bees and what they are doing then there are always going to be disasters around the corner.

We are all different in the way we present things on the forum ... it's the nature of a forum - we are not all fluffy bunnies pandering to people who are lightly offended and you have to live with that if you are going to participate, I've found, however, that polite PM's to those with a more forthright manner usually portray a slightly less forthright reply ... you should try it.

Your post above is offensive - I never suggested that RAB needs any sort of accolade or adulation - he's just very helpful if you have something you can't figure out and if you don't like public posting then a PM (certainly in my experience) has always elicited a prompt and thoughtful reply.

If people feel there is a clique in this forum I rather fear they are wrong ... long term members who know each other's ways - perhaps - but there's no 'clique' as far as I can see. We all have out opinions, foibles and trigger points.

We seem to have gathered a number of new members who may or may not be new to beekeeping but who apparently have a poor understanding of the ethos of the forum. We're not here to pander to individual sensibilities but to share knowledge and help where possible. If a particular member offends someone there is the ignore option. Facebook style spats are neither desirable or helpful. I too respect the knowledge RAB has and offers and being a grown up I don't get upset if the phrasing is truthful even if a little blunt on occasion.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Facebook style spats are neither desirable or helpful.

it was only the other day that someone observed the forum is getting more like farcebook by the day.
It's like a title of the next Dr Who Christmas special

"March of the Offendatrons"!!​

 

[Robert Denny]

Bees make queen cells for three main reasons
to replace a queen that's on the way out.
to multiply the colony (swarming)
to replace a queen that suddenly died/went missing.
The position of the queen cell/cells (QCs) has little significance as to the colony's intentions
The only QC you can identify with any conviction is an emergency cell as with these the bees have to extend a worker cell outwards then downwards to float the larva into a Queen size cell which points downwards
when bees are trying to supersede (replace an old, faulty or knackered queen) they tend to build the QCs around the periphery of the cluster to try and keep the queen from stumbling across them, as the cluster is three dimensional, depending on what frame the QC's are built on, they could be tucked in against the sidebars, fixed to the top bars or hanging off the bottom bars. They will sometimes be found on the face of the outermost frame, but anywhere on the comb, not specifically in the middle. Bees tend to build fewer supersedure cells than swarm cells but this is not always the case, so never assume supersedure if there are more than one QC. They may also swarm with just one QC in the hive.
In general, bees make more QC's when they want to swarm as the objective is to create multiple secondary swarms headed by virgins. these can be found anywhere on the comb. as I said before, sometimes bees will swarm leaving only one QC HOWEVER once the swarm leaves, being suddenly queenless the remaining bees will panic and start building as many emergency QCs as they can
As an aside:

• The first swarm to leave the hive (and this can be headed by a virgin in some cases so never assume it's headed by a laying queen) is called a Prime swarm
• the second a cast
• the third a colt
• the fourth a filly
• a swarm emanating from a colony who started as a swarm that season is called a maiden.

With all the QC's listed so far the bees will have had some kind of advanced notice of the need for a new queen so the cell will have been prepared before the egg was placed there, and will just extend downwards at an angle from the very base however if there is a sudden loss of a queen for whatever reason, the bees will need to float a small larva out of the horizontal worker cell and into a larger vertical cell therefore the emergency QC is obvious as it will grow outwards from the face of the comb and then downwards. Emergency QC's will appear on the face of the comb wherever the bees can find a suitable larva.
**it's worth noting that with EQCs (Emergency Queen Cells) that the bees will chose more advanced larvae to 'convert' into queens than they would normally so you will encounter QC's capped much earlier than the 'regulation 8-9 days written in the books so you may find sealed queen cells appearing on a previously clear frame well within your seven day inspection window - bees will also do this if your method of 'swarm avoidance' is to just tear down QCs at every inspection and hoping the problem will go away**

Superb explanation, thank you very much.

 

[North End Bees]

• The first swarm to leave the hive (and this can be headed by a virgin in some cases so never assume it's headed by a laying queen) is called a Prime swarm
• the second a cast
• the third a colt
• the fourth a filly
• a swarm emanating from a colony who started as a swarm that season is called a maiden.

Where did all these terms come from??
I thought the second, third and fourth were all casts!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Where did all these terms come from??

Old as the hills - technically yes, they are all casts but it's nice sometimes to realise the 'old people' as a ninety year old retired farmer who lived next door used to say had particular words for them.

 

[OH honey]

And a much wiser move.
Seems the OP just went and did whatever he wanted anyway, regardless of advice.

No, OP ( me) took advice from a beekeeper, that the hive was getting very full, looked at methods online, chose one that seemed reasonably easy for a novice and would acieve desired outcomes ( 2 smaller hives with plenty of time to make a queen and build up stores for winter). One hive is carrying on very well, the other has made QC's. The original question I asked could easily have been answered. Instead their has been a lot of criticism and judgement. Time will tell if this method works and I get to September with 2 colonies with plenty of stores.

 

[OH honey]

A better course of action, as you had supers on, would have been to Demaree then take the top box off with a decent queen cell.
Now that you have emergency queen cells at least you can destroy all but one of the youngest.

In effect that is what I did. The queen remained in the bottom box under queen excluder and the top one was filled with brood , stores and empty frames. Bees were shaken off to ensure queen remained below. After about 6 hours a good covering of nurse bees had moved up so I re-sited the top box. The single useful comment I have received is that in making emergency queens, the bees may use larvae up to 3 days old, which was why I saw capped QC at 5 day inspection , with other queen cups, and was the cause of my concern and the original question.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In effect that is what I did.

No you didn’t. You ended up with emergency cells rather than good quality queen cells made under the supersedure impulse

 

[North End Bees]

In effect that is what I did.

It's not the same 'in effect'.
With a demarree the QCs raised under the supersedure impulse, using the resources of a full colony, are done with 'consideration', i.e they've paid attention to making sure the selected larvae are as well nourished as possible.

Using just the nurse bees you've given them, which may or may not be enough, they've raised a new queen as an emergency situation.
For emergency, read panic.

 

[OH honey]

No you didn’t. You ended up with emergency cells rather than good quality queen cells made under the supersedure impulse

In a frame full of brood in all stages, in what way are the emergency queens inferior to " good quality" produced under supercedure or swarm? Genuine question, cos I have read a lot of articles etc indicating there is no difference. Similarly there seems to be opinions on whether to choose the externally best looking QC or leave it the bees, to leave 2 cells or 1. Not saying other methods are not "better" or whatever, but considering the method I chose was simple, appears effective and had the bonus of being demonstrated on at least 3 easy to understand YouTube vids by experienced beekeepers, it seems to have attracted a lot of criticism for being the " wrong" way.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What you have done is a walk away split There's plenty here in the forum why that us not the best way to make increase
So it isn’t “wrong”
Just not ideal.
If you want to raise a new colony from an emergency queen make sure you destroy the first wave of cells thus ensuring your queen is made from a young larva

 

[OH honey]

What you have done is a walk away split There's plenty here in the forum why that us not the best way to make increase
So it isn’t “wrong”
Just not ideal.
If you want to raise a new colony from an emergency queen make sure you destroy the first wave of cells thus ensuring your queen is made from a young larva

Noted. Thanks for that.

 

[Markthebuilder]

Before becoming a bee landloard I read as much as I could about bee keeping and can confirm that all of the books articles and guides etc talked about supercedure on the face of frames and swarm QC on the bottom or side bars… once I became a bee landlord my queens seamed to be plagued with every mishap/ ailment etc .so When I spoted a QC on the face of a comb it reinforced my amateur diagnostics that the queen needed to be replaced or I had killed her.
Since being put right on this forum and by trying to always think of the hive 3 dimensionally. I now see the cells differently… ie they are generally on the periphery of the nest. have also learnt to check to see if my non laying queen or worse has infact moved up into a super and I have learnt in.
I wonder if at least subconsciously bee keepers prefer to see supercedure cells ie something wrong with the queen rather than admit to themselves that they have not managed their hive adequately.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wonder if at least subconsciously bee keepers prefer to see supercedure cells ie something wrong with the queen rather than admit to themselves that they have not managed their hive adequately.

Consciously even. It means you don’t have to do anything but leave them alone

 

[OH honey]

Noted. Thanks for that.

Also, I googled walk away split. It came up with a thread on this site from 2015 featuring you and jenkinsbrynmair. Interesting read.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Also, I googled walk away split. It came up with a thread on this site from 2015 featuring you and jenkinsbrynmair. Interesting read.

So it is

 

[rook66]

It's not the same 'in effect'.
With a demarree the QCs raised under the supersedure impulse, using the resources of a full colony, are done with 'consideration', i.e they've paid attention to making sure the selected larvae are as well nourished as possible.

Using just the nurse bees you've given them, which may or may not be enough, they've raised a new queen as an emergency situation.
For emergency, read panic.

If scout bees at bait hives are anything to go by, the process can take weeks another factor not always considered by beekeepers is the patrilines of the colony, probably the most important (to the bees) aspect of queen selection.

 

[Erichalfbee]

another factor not always considered by beekeepers is the patrilines of the colony, probably the most important (to the bees) aspect of queen selection.

More than we imagine
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0199124

 

[Markthebuilder]

Why on earth are so many beginners reporting supersedure? The position of cells is absolutely nothing to do with intention.
I’d be interested in where these opinions are coming from. Friends? Facebook? YouTube? Books?

Any google search generates this type of info it was certainly my belief until educated on this forum first result I found after a simple search is from dadent.com see bellow

Beekeepers usually find supersedure cells on the comb face, extending out from the surface and hanging downwards. With most varieties of honey bees, the colony will produce between one and three supersedure cells at one time.

Swarm queen cells on the edge of honey bee combSwarm queen cells
What is a Swarm Cell?

By contrast, swarm cells produce a new queen to take the place of the one preparing to leave the hive. Typically, the bees produce many swarm cells and the strongest of these new queens take over the production of new brood for the colony.

Most beekeepers report seeing three or more swarm cells of variable age in their hives. Unlike supersedure cells, bees typically create swarm cells along the margins of the comb when the colony is preparing to swarm.

 

[Erichalfbee]

By contrast, swarm cells produce a new queen to take the place of the one preparing to leave the hive. Typically, the bees produce many swarm cells and the strongest of these new queens take over the production of new brood for the colony.

Nope.
What happens is that the bees can hold emerging virgins back in their cells. The first to emerge can lead a cast swarm. The bees can let another and another out issuing more swarms. Sometimes cast swarms leave with more than one virgin. Sometimes the colony settles down with one surviving virgin sometimes the colony swarms itself to death. It's not about the strongest queen