Supercedure and swarm cells at the same time

[OH honey]

I split a large hive in to two last week. The queen remained with the original hive and the idea was for the new hive to raise a new queen from the brood/ egg frames. After 5 days I checked both hives. Original had eggs, brood and larvae, no QC.. New hive had 2 closed supercedure cells( middle of frame on 2 adjacent frames), and a number of queen cups, cells with royal jelly and QC with larvae. I have removed everything except 2 supercedure cells. I'm guessing they had started supercedure just before split and I missed it, and after split went crazy making QC as they lost their queen. Any thoughts?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

None of those were supersedure cells - they are emergency QC's as you had made them queenless

 

[Erichalfbee]

I split a large hive in to two last week. The queen remained with the original hive and the idea was for the new hive to raise a new queen from the brood/ egg frames. After 5 days I checked both hives. Original had eggs, brood and larvae, no QC.. New hive had 2 closed supercedure cells( middle of frame on 2 adjacent frames), and a number of queen cups, cells with royal jelly and QC with larvae. I have removed everything except 2 supercedure cells. I'm guessing they had started supercedure just before split and I missed it, and after split went crazy making QC as they lost their queen. Any thoughts?

Right. This needs addressing as it is getting so common I’m wondering where beginners are getting their information from.
If you remove a queen from her colony the bees will make emergency cells. Lots.
That’s what you have

 

[Boston Bees]

Right. This needs addressing as it is getting so common I’m wondering where beginners are getting their information from.
If you remove a queen from her colony the bees will make emergency cells. Lots.
That’s what you have

Maybe the a good subject for a sticky?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why on earth are so many beginners reporting supersedure? The position of cells is absolutely nothing to do with intention.
I’d be interested in where these opinions are coming from. Friends? Facebook? YouTube? Books?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Maybe the a good subject for a sticky?

Yes it is.
Please do us a post and I’ll put it there in lights

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Right. This needs addressing as it is getting so common I’m wondering where beginners are getting their information from.

'experts' with tickets

 

[Erichalfbee]

I need a volunteer
I nice concise post
Thank you

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bees make queen cells for three main reasons
to replace a queen that's on the way out.
to multiply the colony (swarming)
to replace a queen that suddenly died/went missing.
The position of the queen cell/cells (QCs) has little significance as to the colony's intentions
The only QC you can identify with any conviction is an emergency cell as with these the bees have to extend a worker cell outwards then downwards to float the larva into a Queen size cell which points downwards
when bees are trying to supersede (replace an old, faulty or knackered queen) they tend to build the QCs around the periphery of the cluster to try and keep the queen from stumbling across them, as the cluster is three dimensional, depending on what frame the QC's are built on, they could be tucked in against the sidebars, fixed to the top bars or hanging off the bottom bars. They will sometimes be found on the face of the outermost frame, but anywhere on the comb, not specifically in the middle. Bees tend to build fewer supersedure cells than swarm cells but this is not always the case, so never assume supersedure if there are more than one QC. They may also swarm with just one QC in the hive.
In general, bees make more QC's when they want to swarm as the objective is to create multiple secondary swarms headed by virgins. these can be found anywhere on the comb. as I said before, sometimes bees will swarm leaving only one QC HOWEVER once the swarm leaves, being suddenly queenless the remaining bees will panic and start building as many emergency QCs as they can
As an aside:

• The first swarm to leave the hive (and this can be headed by a virgin in some cases so never assume it's headed by a laying queen) is called a Prime swarm
• the second a cast
• the third a colt
• the fourth a filly
• a swarm emanating from a colony who started as a swarm that season is called a maiden.

With all the QC's listed so far the bees will have had some kind of advanced notice of the need for a new queen so the cell will have been prepared before the egg was placed there, and will just extend downwards at an angle from the very base however if there is a sudden loss of a queen for whatever reason, the bees will need to float a small larva out of the horizontal worker cell and into a larger vertical cell therefore the emergency QC is obvious as it will grow outwards from the face of the comb and then downwards. Emergency QC's will appear on the face of the comb wherever the bees can find a suitable larva.
**it's worth noting that with EQCs (Emergency Queen Cells) that the bees will chose more advanced larvae to 'convert' into queens than they would normally so you will encounter QC's capped much earlier than the 'regulation 8-9 days written in the books so you may find sealed queen cells appearing on a previously clear frame well within your seven day inspection window - bees will also do this if your method of 'swarm avoidance' is to just tear down QCs at every inspection and hoping the problem will go away**

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It may need tweaking

 

[OH honey]

Bees make queen cells for three main reasons
to replace a queen that's on the way out.
to multiply the colony (swarming)
to replace a queen that suddenly died/went missing.
The position of the queen cell/cells (QCs) has little significance as to the colony's intentions
The only QC you can identify with any conviction is an emergency cell as with these the bees have to extend a worker cell outwards then downwards to float the larva into a Queen size cell which points downwards
when bees are trying to supersede (replace an old, faulty or knackered queen) they tend to build the QCs around the periphery of the cluster to try and keep the queen from stumbling across them, as the cluster is three dimensional, depending on what frame the QC's are built on, they could be tucked in against the sidebars, fixed to the top bars or hanging off the bottom bars. They will sometimes be found on the face of the outermost frame, but anywhere on the comb, not specifically in the middle. Bees tend to build fewer supersedure cells than swarm cells but this is not always the case, so never assume supersedure if there are more than one QC. They may also swarm with just one QC in the hive.
In general, bees make more QC's when they want to swarm as the objective is to create multiple secondary swarms headed by virgins. these can be found anywhere on the comb. as I said before, sometimes bees will swarm leaving only one QC HOWEVER once the swarm leaves, being suddenly queenless the remaining bees will panic and start building as many emergency QCs as they can
As an aside:

• The first swarm to leave the hive (and this can be headed by a virgin in some cases so never assume it's headed by a laying queen) is called a Prime swarm
• the second a cast
• the third a colt
• the fourth a filly
• a swarm emanating from a colony who started as a swarm that season is called a maiden.

With all the QC's listed so far the bees will have had some kind of advanced notice of the need for a new queen so the cell will have been prepared before the egg was placed there, and will just extend downwards at an angle from the very base however if there is a sudden loss of a queen for whatever reason, the bees will need to float a small larva out of the horizontal worker cell and into a larger vertical cell therefore the emergency QC is obvious as it will grow outwards from the face of the comb and then downwards. Emergency QC's will appear on the face of the comb wherever the bees can find a suitable larva.

Thanks for that. So my understanding was it would take 9 days for the QC to be capped. I checked the hive 5 days after splitting and found 2 cells capped ,as you describe emergency cells hanging down from a worker cell in the middle of the frames. All the other QC's were along the bottom of the frames and were still open.

 

[OH honey]

Right. This needs addressing as it is getting so common I’m wondering where beginners are getting their information from.
If you remove a queen from her colony the bees will make emergency cells. Lots.
That’s what you have

2 Capped after 5 days? All the rest were open. Not a problem for me as that was the intention by splitting. Just seems a bit quick for them to have capped so quickly.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Why on earth are so many beginners reporting supersedure?

Wishful thinking.

Supersedure means that they believe no action is required; swarming is complicated and needs fiddling and boxes.

 

[Swarm]

2 Capped after 5 days? All the rest were open. Not a problem for me as that was the intention by splitting. Just seems a bit quick for them to have capped so quickly.

Yes, capped day 8/9. Three days as an egg .....They don't always start at day one
The reason for five day inspections.

 

[OH honey]

Yes, capped day 8/9. Three days as an egg .....They don't always start at day one
The reason for five day inspections.

Ok. So the nurse bees took a 3 day old egg on the day I split and raised it as an emergency queen? Should emerge on day 12 then?

 

[OH honey]

Ok. So the nurse bees took a 3 day old egg on the day I split and raised it as an emergency queen? Should emerge on day 12 then?

Day 12 after the split I mean

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ok. So the nurse bees took a 3 day old egg on the day I split and raised it as an emergency queen? Should emerge on day 12 then?

Bees can make emergency cells from larvae up to 3 days old. That’s day 6 capped 2/3 days later

 

[Newbeeneil]

I found, what I would describe as a supercedure situation yesterday.
4 Sealed cells on the top bar of the centre frame (periphery of the nest), eggs still evident and clipped queen still happily laying.
I removed all but one cell and put the queen in a nuc. I certainly think they were superseding her but I have no idea what they really want to do and I'd rather be on the safe side.

 

[ericbeaumont]

So the nurse bees took a 3 day old egg

An egg remains an egg for three days; on the fourth it hatches to become a larvae. Do you mean the bees took a three-day old larvae?

 

[ChrisS]

Bees can make emergency cells from larvae up to 3 days old. That’s day 6 capped 2/3 days later

...and that's why knocking out all the queen cells won't stop them swarming. It may buy you a day or two's time to get your act together!