Super with no frames for honey with no commercial foundation

[Jimy Dee]

Hello all,

Background : I wish to have cut comb with no commercial foundation, and I have no objection to comb built naturally as designed by the bees.

Goal : put no frames into my super, just use a plywood sheet to lay into the top side rebates in the super (the rebate normally used to rest the lugs of the frames) so the pylwood sheet is where the top bars of the frames would normally be positioned, thereby facilitating the bees attach their combs onto the underside of this plywood sheet.

Question 1 : has any one ever done this or something similar previously and how did you get on?

Question 2 : What size holes and how many would you put on such a plywood insert to allow bees access to any supers put on top of this unusual super?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Background : I wish to have cut comb with no commercial foundation, and I have no objection to comb built naturally as designed by the bees.

If you let them build comb wherever, and however, they want it probably won't be any use as cut comb because it will have too many curves to fit in any boxes. The comb will also be quite difficult to remove from the plywood sheet without breaking it.

Wild comb like this will also make the top box difficult to check and clear, because they'll probably attach the comb to the sides of the box as well as the frames in the lower box.

I use frames with starter strips for cut comb, which I think gives the best of both worlds. They get to build nice clean wax of whatever cell size they choose, and I find it easier to harvest.

Please don't let me put you off, because it does seem an interesting project. If you go ahead with this please let us know how you get on, and take loads of pictures too.

 

[YorkshireBees]

Not that I would personally recommend what you want to try however I can offer a couple of shots from a hive that I was called to rescue late last year.
On managing to prise the crownboard off I found that the super didn't contain any frames but the bees had made use of the space anyway!

As you can see it was a beautiful mess for me to clear up!

I think the problem you will have is that without any frames the bees will attach their comb to the sides of the box as well making it pretty impossible to harvest for cut comb.

 

[Zante]

Have you considered something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1s28Oyxd-Q

and in here the bees are at work in the "super"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHhqAY9NX-A

 

[Motobiman]

That looks a lot like a Japanese hive full of wild comb.

Why not try top bars or frames and starter strips first?

 

[Erichalfbee]

You might try putting empty frames with a starter strip or a wedge turned round and you might get away with lovely straight comb.
My FOOLPROOF way is to alternate those empty frames with frames of foundation/drawn frames to get straight comb

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'd have a go at just making up the frames without removing the wedges (which leaves a channel same as the side bars.) A lot of langstroth hives where I was in Lesotho had frames put into them with no foundation or starter strips or anything apart from being prewired and the bees in most cases started drawing comb from the channels.
To give it even better odds you could dribble some molten wax which you know was produced by your bees into the channel in the top bar.

 

[alfazer]

You're asking about the access holes, their size and how many. I would think if you could your take your plywood sheet and drill the holes in parallel rows about 35mm apart (just like frame spacing) it would help train the bees to build the comb in straight lines. The hols would be around 8mm diameter. Even better, if you have a router, make long slots instead of lots of holes. At each side and end of the board I would attach sides and drill or router match slots in those too. It would basically look like an eke attached under the board. That way you can lift the whole lot out without it sticking to the super.
But really, what I've just described is probably no advantage over a row of frames anyway.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hello all,

Background : I wish to have cut comb with no commercial foundation, and I have no objection to comb built naturally as designed by the bees.

Goal : put no frames into my super, just use a plywood sheet to lay into the top side rebates in the super (the rebate normally used to rest the lugs of the frames) so the pylwood sheet is where the top bars of the frames would normally be positioned, thereby facilitating the bees attach their combs onto the underside of this plywood sheet.

Question 1 : has any one ever done this or something similar previously and how did you get on?

Question 2 : What size holes and how many would you put on such a plywood insert to allow bees access to any supers put on top of this unusual super?

Let's face it, you are going to cut the comb anyway so why not use frames with starter strips and cut the comb you want away from the starter strips?

 

[Jimy Dee]

Thanks for all the replies. I will give my own project a go and post photos to report how I got on.

 

[bpmurray]

Thanks for all the replies. I will give my own project a go and post photos to report how I got on.

I simply put a sliver of wax into the top of the frames and cut that half cm down into the comb. That way you don't have the thick wax while keeping he nice shape enforced by the frame.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks for all the replies. I will give my own project a go and post photos to report how I got on.

Yes please

 

[pargyle]

Hello all,

Background : I wish to have cut comb with no commercial foundation, and I have no objection to comb built naturally as designed by the bees.

Goal : put no frames into my super, just use a plywood sheet to lay into the top side rebates in the super (the rebate normally used to rest the lugs of the frames) so the pylwood sheet is where the top bars of the frames would normally be positioned, thereby facilitating the bees attach their combs onto the underside of this plywood sheet.

Question 1 : has any one ever done this or something similar previously and how did you get on?

Question 2 : What size holes and how many would you put on such a plywood insert to allow bees access to any supers put on top of this unusual super?

I think most people will have seen the results of letting bees build free comb without the structure of frames in a super - accidentally miss out a frame and within hours you will have some very creative comb architecture - it will be difficult to use for anything and cutting it out will end up with a mess of comb, honey running everywhere and a lot of cleaning up.

Why try to see what happens when you pretty much KNOW what will happen ...you are just trying to reinvent the wheel ... pointless exercise.

If you want foundationless comb for cut comb - just do what those of us who are foundationless do now ... give them an empty frame with either a triangular timber starter strip or a dribble of wax, or just the wedge off the frame tacked into the middle of the top bar - they will build comb from these and fill out the frames with lovely drawn comb which they will fill with honey - making cut comb a pleasant experience rather than the mess you will end up with ...

If you have a drawn super frame or one with foundation to put in the middle of the super as a guide it will assist - and orientatiing the hive so that the frames/bars are aligned North/South tends to stop them building comb across the frames.

 

[pargyle]

Yes please

You just want a good laugh and to say I told you so !!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You just want a good laugh and to say I told you so !!!

Moi!

 

[Hivemaker.]

Thanks for all the replies. I will give my own project a go

To get bigger combs which will give a better choice of combs to cut it would be a good idea to use a deep box as a super, rather than a shallow.