Should I split and requeen ?

[Aledrinker]

Hi All, would appreciate some opinions on this.

This is my 3rd year with the same queen I started with (so she's 3 possibly 4) first year started in late May so I left all the honey for them to overwinter. But left too much so 2nd year they were incredibly lazy and the queen was slow to build up. I could not eat the honey as varroa treatments had been applied and they built good honey on top of the tainted honey. - I know I should have re framed.

So 3rd year now and really want to get it right.

I have a cedar national on a jumbo poly and the cedar national is nearly full with bees, brood and stores. I have removed the tainted honey and given them a 1kg:1300ml sugar syrup feed.

Right my questions are:

Should I split the hive as soon as the jumbo poly has all frames drawn.

If I should split should I let the split requeen itself or should I buy a new one.

With the old queen should I leave her another year or requeen or let the bees decide.

I am keen to get some honey this year so want to make sure I get this right.

Many Thanks in advance.

 

[enrico]

I would wait and make use of an artificial swarm to kill swarming instinct and get a second fresh hive. That way you can always combine again using the new comb. Kills two birds with one stone!
E

 

[oliver90owner]

But left too much so 2nd year they were incredibly lazy and the queen was slow to build up

Bees don't work like that. Last year was incredibly difficult for them and all (well, a lot) natural colonies, or unmanaged colonies, built up slowly, or very late.

Not sure what you mean by 'cedar national' on top....

What is in the jumbo poly?

'Frames drawn' is not a measure of anything specific, excepting they are drawn!

Running two colonies is regarded as easier than one, so are we assuming you wish to increase?

Better to induce supercedure cells for the split (clearly, to me, we are not talking here artificial swarm).

Timing is important for splits (swarming is chosen by the bees at what they consider the right time in the circumstances).

Whether you choose to buy in a queen is up to you, after genetic and monetary considerations.

Are you sure the queen is the original? She might easily be last season's queen.

You are more likely to get a good crop from a single large colony than two small ones.

A lot to consider if you want to get it right, I think. So let's have some more info if you are expecting good advice.

RAB

 

[Arfermo]

I would wait and make use of an artificial swarm to kill swarming instinct and get a second fresh hive. That way you can always combine again using the new comb. Kills two birds with one stone!
E

You can make the bees generate a new queen quite simply by squishing the existing one. Assuming that the existying Q is still laying, even just a bit, the workers will then be stimulated into creating multiple emergency QCs from any new-ish eggs. All you then need is for one Q to emerge and then go on a mating spree with the local drones. For that reason, best to wait a while longer to ensure that there are plenty of virile drones about just waiting to frolic. No need to go to the vast expense of buying full colonies - DIY and free using local bee society is best.
Multiple QC will also give you the opportunity to create a nuc, if you have the equipment to hand, ready for a fresh new full colony later in the year. Surfing will find multiple explanations of making increase and nuc procedures.

 

[Midland Beek]

You can make the bees generate a new queen quite simply by squishing the existing one.

Genius idea. Not.

 

[MartinL]

You can make the bees generate a new queen quite simply by squishing the existing one. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Yes, Simple!

And if there's not enough drones for your fresh virgin???
Simply wipe em all out!

Great Idea. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

But not if you only have the one colony.
If you want to have any chance, don't destroy the only one laying fertile eggs.

 

[mbc]

Genius idea. Not.

The idea of splitting and letting them raise an emergency queen is risky and a waste of resources to my mind too, better to buy in a queen, or as others have suggested, induce them to raise their own properly nourished queencells before splitting.

 

[Aledrinker]

But left too much so 2nd year they were incredibly lazy and the queen was slow to build up

Bees don't work like that. Last year was incredibly difficult for them and all (well, a lot) natural colonies, or unmanaged colonies, built up slowly, or very late.

Not sure what you mean by 'cedar national' on top....

What is in the jumbo poly?

'Frames drawn' is not a measure of anything specific, excepting they are drawn!

Running two colonies is regarded as easier than one, so are we assuming you wish to increase?

Better to induce supercedure cells for the split (clearly, to me, we are not talking here artificial swarm).

Timing is important for splits (swarming is chosen by the bees at what they consider the right time in the circumstances).

Whether you choose to buy in a queen is up to you, after genetic and monetary considerations.

Are you sure the queen is the original? She might easily be last season's queen.

You are more likely to get a good crop from a single large colony than two small ones.

A lot to consider if you want to get it right, I think. So let's have some more info if you are expecting good advice.

RAB

Thanks for all the replies, some excellent advice.

As I have 2 hives on top of each other, with 1 queen I have decided to leave them alone until they decide they want to swarm. As soon as I see queen cells I will take the cedar national off of the poly and try to create an artificial swarm by moving it to another spot with 6/7frames of brood and stores and a load of new frames - I will then leave the q cells to hatch and see what happens. Let me know your thoughts if any disagrees

 

[oliver90owner]

As I have 2 hives on top of each other

2 hives on top of each other? The minimum for a hive is a floor, broodbox, crown board and roof.

Are you sure you have two hives, one on top of the other? New beeks can be terribly muddled (there s a current thread where the new beek thinks extra deep frames are deeps and nobody has enlightened them; some think shallows and supers are the same item). I am thinking you mean two boxes, not two hives ...
but there again, nothing is surprising in beekeeping ...

 

[Aledrinker]

As I have 2 hives on top of each other

2 hives on top of each other? The minimum for a hive is a floor, broodbox, crown board and roof.

Are you sure you have two hives, one on top of the other? New beeks can be terribly muddled (there s a current thread where the new beek thinks extra deep frames are deeps and nobody has enlightened them; some think shallows and supers are the same item). I am thinking you mean two boxes, not two hives ...
but there again, nothing is surprising in beekeeping ...

Sorry 2 brood boxes on top of each other should have realized that would confuse people - so far they seem to be building up very quickly so will leave them alone for now - once cold weather has past this weekend I may add a super

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Sorry 2 brood boxes on top of each other should have realized that would confuse people - so far they seem to be building up very quickly so will leave them alone for now - once cold weather has past this weekend I may add a super

You seem to be jumping from idea to idea a bit. Do you have a mentor or a good book or three? I think Ted Hoopers book and a good read through might give you a good grounding in what you need although a good mentor is worth their weight in gold. Particularly one with adaptable thinking not one of the "we did it this way in 1940 and I see no reason to update methods" variety
Unless you are in a particularly warmer location with bees at full activity adding a super before the brood is at the right stage is in my thinking just more space to lose heat to and make work for the bees.
Starting out in beekeeping is an exciting time but does need a lot of thought and patience.

 

[pargyle]

You seem to be jumping from idea to idea a bit. Do you have a mentor or a good book or three? I think Ted Hoopers book and a good read through might give you a good grounding in what you need although a good mentor is worth their weight in gold. Particularly one with adaptable thinking not one of the "we did it this way in 1940 and I see no reason to update methods" variety
....
Starting out in beekeeping is an exciting time but does need a lot of thought and patience.

+1 ...

But I'd go for an easier read to start with ... The Haynes Manual of Beekeeping is a really simple guide to follow (lacking a lot of the detail of Hooper but I think Hoopers a bit daunting when you start out ...and I know there's lots that will disagree with me !). Hooper is an essential on the bookshelf and will be there long after you have dispensed with the Haynes book.