setting up mating apiary

[jeff33]

Afternoon all,

Assuming that I have found a site remote enough to minimise the risk of my virgins mating with some random mongrels, how many drone producing hives would be needed to ensure plentiful drone availability for 2 cycles of mating with around 10 virgins each time please?

 

[B+.]

Afternoon all,

Assuming that I have found a site remote enough to minimise the risk of my virgins mating with some random mongrels, how many drone producing hives would be needed to ensure plentiful drone availability for 2 cycles of mating with around 10 virgins each time please?

I suggest that you test the site with a batch of virgin queens in mating nucs first. If they remain unmated after 3-4 weeks, you can have confidence that your site is good enough.
It is difficult to answer your question about drone colonies because this would depend on your goal. If you were trying to develop a trait, one colony would be enough (previously supplied with 2 combs containing large areas of drone cells ~ 40 days before). This would give you lots of drones from the same queen (assuming this queen has previously demonstrated high performance in the trait you are trying to develop and that she is not closely related to the virgin queens).

 

[jeff33]

I suggest that you test the site with a batch of virgin queens in mating nucs first. If they remain unmated after 3-4 weeks, you can have confidence that your site is good enough.

That's really helpful B+, I didn't think of that.

 

[Poly Hive]

I would give them a good 5 weeks as a serious test.

The darker near native bees take that bit longer.

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thinking of setting up an apiary on Flatholm or something?

 

[Plenty of honey]

Even if your mating station isn't perfect you can bring in more drones than you need and flood the area, or if the area is suitable you could get another beekeeper to bring his best stocks to the area. Theres nothing wrong with flooding an area with desirable traits providing you either feed those colonies or there is enough to support the colonies with natural nectar and pollen . Drone colonies need to be well fed to get good quality drones. We started feeding ours this year. Drone are produced longer in to the season too ( or so it seemed)
Getting a perfect cross is obviously what your trying to achieve, but i would suggest that thats going to be very difficult. Getting a well mated, Well fed queen is the next best thing!

 

[jeff33]

Thinking of setting up an apiary on Flatholm or something?

Wrong side of town JB!!
I wouldn't mind having a supply of good queens rather than buying in whenever I need requeening. There are a couple of beeks in the area who are keen to get involved to improve local stocks. The first batch in the 1st year may be used to re-queen existing poorly performing queens or to set up nucs and work with them for a full season before being selective.

 

[For want of a better word]

I would give them a good 5 weeks as a serious test.

The darker near native bees take that bit longer.

PH

Somewhere HM reported a test he carried out at one of the Brother Adam isolated sited on Dartmoor... in 6 weeks virgins did not get to meet a drone and get mated... that is isolated!
Drone will fly 6 miles + for a bonk it seems!

My money would be on drone flooding... minimum 4 strong colonies with drone foundation... good chance of apiary vicinity mating if using Amm.

Yeghes da

 

[Poly Hive]

I did the same sort of thing at Glen Dye and got a positive result as in no matings.

Then a helpful chappie wrote a book extolling the area for walking and there was a people bee conflict and I lost the site. *shrug* I arrived one day to find 6 coach loads.... ffs!

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Somewhere HM reported a test he carried out at one of the Brother Adam isolated sited on Dartmoor... in 6 weeks virgins did not get to meet a drone and get mated... that is isolated!
Drone will fly 6 miles + for a bonk it seems!

Unlikely Jeff would get anything even close to that around here - even the gwrhyd mountain which may look fairly remote has bees within flying distance in all directions.
The only hope would be, as he indicated, drone flooding.

 

[Brian Bush]

Unless you have a mating apiary on an Island or remote valley getting your queens to mate with the correct drones is an issue.
If you read the work of Gudren Koeniger you will have a clearer understanding of the issues. She also gave a talk at the National Honey Show a couple of years ago available on YouTube. Basically the mating controls developed over millions of years of evolution try to ensure that queens do not mate with their own sons. DCA tend to be 1000 to 1500 meters form a colony. The drones form the apiary go to the nearest DCA. Queens fly to a DCA 2500 to 3000 m away. It can be viewed as the nectar they take before leaving the hive providing flying fuel for an hour. Drones take 20 mind to reach a DCA can have 20 mins on station hoping to get lucky and then have 20mins of flying to return and refill. The queens can fly for 30 mins outward, only need to spend a few minutes on site and then return after mating. Drones need to maximize time in the DCA and may have to fly there many times so go to the nearest. Queens are guaranteed a 'good time' normally on the first couple of flights.
The posters on the forum who have said you need to test for drones in the area are correct. That is why an island or isolated valley are the only options for controlling free mating. Drones and queens are disinclined to fly over water and in these circumstances you can have the drones in the vicinity of the queens.

 

[Brian Bush]

Drone flooding is a very in-exact science. You need to have control of all the drone colonies in an area with a radius of over 3km probably nearer 4.5 km. Just put your location into BeeBase and find out how many apiaries there are within this radius. Remember that is just the registered ones, it does not take into account the feral colonies and the 'beekeepers' who do not register and probably don't give a damn. Or have followed Monty bloody Dons advice!!!!. I have issues with aggressive bees If I raise a new queen and she mates with 10 drones two of whom have aggressive tendencies 20% of my workers will probably be aggressive. In a colony of 50000 that is 10000 nasty bees.

 

[alldigging]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI26DLS2CyM
A lecture given by Gudran Koeniger at the National Honey Show 2014 entitled "Mating Biology of Honeybees. DCA's - A Natural Strategy To Avoid In-breeding". The National Honey Show gratefully acknowledge the sponsorship of the Garfield Weston Foundation.
SHOW MORE

 

[Lancs Lad]

jeff33

like you I live on the coast, my mating apiary is right next to the sea and this gives me a 180 degree Drone barrier, if you can get a site like this just put your best hives there. Like the Buckfast method of breeding my mating apiary has stocks with sister queens this gives most probably as good as you can get without having a very isolated mating apiary

 

[jeff33]

Yes the site is on the coast with sea on 1 side and hills on the other side. I am conscious it will be impossible to achieve perfect mating conditions and purity where I am and I am in no way pretending that I will try to achieve this. I am just interested in improving my stock and having an area that can be used annually to produce descent, local queens for my hives and other surrounding beeks.

 

[wightbees]

Try what is called moonlight mating. Just simplify the method

 

[Swarm]

Enlisting local beekeepers with a common cause would help. If those around you have a similar outlook you could have drones patrolling a larger area and forming a bit of a buffer around the coastal site.
When your nearest beekeepers have a ... shall we just say ... 'different' idea about beekeeping, then it's an uphill struggle.
Best of luck and I hope you get them on board.

 

[Finman]

Yes the site is on the coast with sea on 1 side and hills on the other side. I am conscious it will be impossible to achieve perfect mating conditions and purity where I am and I am in no way pretending that I will try to achieve this. I am just interested in improving my stock and having an area that can be used annually to produce descent, local queens for my hives and other surrounding beeks.

Queens will be very expencive when you sacrifice your drone hives' yield onto good for nothing pastures.

 

[B+.]

Like the Buckfast method of breeding my mating apiary has stocks with sister queens this gives most probably as good as you can get without having a very isolated mating apiary

Actually, the same approach is used by all breeders (It isn't exclusive to Buckfast). It is based on the pedigree/biology of the honeybee

 

[mazzamazda]

Queens will be very expencive when you sacrifice your drone hives' yield onto good for nothing pastures.

I agree, huge amount of resources, with less than ideal weather conditions, testing could take years, even then your queens with respect wont be a patch on some good bought in queens where breeders do all the hard work. I can appreciate what you are trying to do though.