running bb with runners and DN1

[jeff33]

As the title says. I have always run my bb with DN4 but I often end up squashing some bees. Just wondering if anyone runs BB with DN1 and runners and what the advantages are? thanks

 

[Swarm]

Normal frame runners and no means of spacing? Or do you mean castellated runners?
I understand what you say about hoffman spacers, the bees love to jump on the exposed bit of the sidebar and it's the bit that slows down inspections as you try to move them.

 

[drex]

I love Hoffman in the BB. Just a bit of smoke to get them down and slowly abutt frames

 

[user 819]

I use mainly Hoffman but still get the odd bee who commits suicide at the last minute.
Dn1's will work if you use upholsterers 6mm domed studs to create a 12mm spacing.
As I replace my Hoffmans with age and W/M damage I use the above method for minmal contact area.

 

[jeff33]

Normal frame runners and no means of spacing? Or do you mean castellated runners?
I understand what you say about hoffman spacers, the bees love to jump on the exposed bit of the sidebar and it's the bit that slows down inspections as you try to move them.

yes use castellated runners (11 frames). I can see that being a pain as well though and more fiddly!!

 

[Ely]

You can push the inspected frame vertically downwards so that it is already touching the last frame's hoffman spacing. That way you push any bees down and out of the way rather than putting the frame in and sliding it across, closing a gap between them that bees may jump into. I'm not sure if that makes sense? It is difficult to type what I am thinking.

 

[jeff33]

It is difficult to type what I am thinking.

Don't worry, I get the same issue everyday . Yes, it makes sense, align vertically to the other one and drop the frame pushing bees down rather than squashing them.

 

[user 819]

The only issue with pushing frames down vertically is one may end up riling the bees if they are rolled , depends on if one shakes bees off or not . One reason why dummy boards or leaving a 6 - 8 mm gap at one end works one creates a little wiggle room so as not to rile/roll the bees.

 

[user 819]

I think Neil uses Castellations in the BB as he is a disciple of Rogers.

 

[Swarm]

Peter Little used to use castellations. I've used them myself in the past, they give a nice frame spacing.

 

[Midget Gem]

I use mainly Hoffman but still get the odd bee who commits suicide at the last minute.
Dn1's will work if you use upholsterers 6mm domed studs to create a 12mm spacing.
As I replace my Hoffmans with age and W/M damage I use the above method for minmal contact area.

What diameter are the studs? Do you have a link for what you buy, please?

 

[pargyle]

As the title says. I have always run my bb with DN4 but I often end up squashing some bees. Just wondering if anyone runs BB with DN1 and runners and what the advantages are? thanks

I don't understand the problem ? You have a dummy board at the end of the brood box. You take that out and you have space to get the next frame out without rolling the bees. You just carry on through the box using the space you have created to move the frame away from the next one before lifting it out. You put the frames back using the same space and then push them all up together in one go by levering them with your hive tool.

I was taught this by my mentor when I first started keeping bees - I thought it was standard practice. I rarely roll any bees or squash them.

 

[jeff33]

I don't understand the problem ? You have a dummy board at the end of the brood box. You take that out and you have space to get the next frame out without rolling the bees. You just carry on through the box using the space you have created to move the frame away from the next one before lifting it out. You put the frames back using the same space and then push them all up together in one go by levering them with your hive tool.

I was taught this by my mentor when I first started keeping bees - I thought it was standard practice. I rarely roll any bees or squash them.

Yes, I use a dummy board and spacing to remove frames without rolling bees etc. quite often when I put the frames back the bees will go on the DN4 chamfered edge and I either faff to get them away to avoid squashing a couple unnecessarily or I squash a few which I don't look doing. If you have a slightly feisty hive this can set them off a bit and make the inspection more of a faff.
It is not a problem, been using DN4 since the start but was just wanted to hear the experience of those who use castellated spacers.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You put the frames back using the same space and then push them all up together in one go by levering them with your hive tool.

I leave them as they are and put the dummy back at the other end. Some of my bees are so sticky there is no way I can push the whole lot any way.

 

[Newbeeneil]

It is not a problem, been using DN4 since the start but was just wanted to hear the experience of those who use castellated spacers.

I was taught beekeeping using DN1s and castellations in the brood box but I maintain hives for people who have DN4s and runners so I have significant experience of both systems.
I prefer to use and kill less bees while using the castellations but it takes a bit of getting used to when you first start as you have to make room at one end of the Bb by slightly lifting and resting the 3 or 4 frames together.
You can still kill bees as you replace the frames into the castellations but a little puff of smoke on the frame ends normally clears the bees.
Because I often supply bees to my clients the bees are on DN1s on runners so I just space the frames at a BS finger width which works a treat and never traps a bee.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

yes use castellated runners (11 frames). I can see that being a pain as well though and more fiddly!!

Pete Little (Hivemaker) ran most of his brood boxes on castellations
Was discussing it today with the bee inspectors when I was asked if I knew anyone who did this funnily enough Dan Baxter (the RBI) put it down to the metric/imperial conflict as the original Hoffman frames here used to space out the frames snugly with no extra space at the end which required a dummy board.
Maybe we should all go gammon and demand imperial measurement hoffmans!

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

Pete Little (Hivemaker) ran most of his brood boxes on castellations
Was discussing it today with the bee inspectors when I was asked if I knew anyone who did this funnily enough Dan Baxter (the RBI) put it down to the metric/imperial conflict as the original Hoffman frames here used to space out the frames snugly with no extra space at the end which required a dummy board.
Maybe we should all go gammon and demand imperial measurement hoffmans!

It's a real issue for us as I still have hundreds of my grandfather's frames within the system which would be imperial measure.
The T who shall not ever be written by me again broods will not accept 12 frames, yet our maisi box's will, the internal measurement being correct for the imperial frames.
Murray's frames are the same, 12 in one, 11 in the other.
I hate dummy boards, they mean more time in the workshop, another piece to carry/lose etc plus I like how snug 12 frames are when we are moving around on pollination jobs.

 

[rolande]

Couple of mentions of Pete Little in this thread but as I understood his posts on the subject he used Hoffman in the broods (being a fan and maker of 1.5" spacing) and castellations in the supers.



Randy Oliver's recent National Honey Show video has some good pointers on comb/frame manipulation (as well as a dismissive comment on the castellations after being shown a few UK hives):



Edit: the screenshot of hivemaker's post could be a misuse, he may in that *specific* context have been referring to the frames he manufactured. However there are definitely other posts where he talks of using Hoffman brood spacing in his hives (I also found a post where he was praising plastic spacers for brood frames) I simply don't have time to search further at present -oddly the forum search won't let me add hivemaker to the search criteria so I had to search via Google.

Anyway, a nice video of him inspecting a drone raiser on Dartmoor, national hive Hoffman frames, on his still active Facebook page dated 20 February 2014.

 

[jeff33]

It's a real issue for us as I still have hundreds of my grandfather's frames within the system which would be imperial measure.
The T who shall not ever be written by me again broods will not accept 12 frames, yet our maisi box's will, the internal measurement being correct for the imperial frames.
Murray's frames are the same, 12 in one, 11 in the other.
I hate dummy boards, they mean more time in the workshop, another piece to carry/lose etc plus I like how snug 12 frames are when we are moving around on pollination jobs.

I use a mix of standard newer DN4s and Murray frames and the empty space at the end varies in boxes by 3-4mm, not enough to put a 12th DN4 but can put a DN1 (I have an old batch which I turned into dummy boards).
Some of my newer BBs seem to have more space but I haven't spent any time measuring if the difference is with the boxes or frames. All my equipment is 2nd so this may explain differences.

 

[Antipodes]

Couple of mentions of Pete Little in this thread but as I understood his posts on the subject he used Hoffman in the broods (being a fan and maker of 1.5" spacing) and castellations in the supers.

View attachment 40759

Randy Oliver's recent National Honey Show video has some good pointers on comb/frame manipulation (as well as a dismissive comment on the castellations after being shown a few UK hives):

At 51.40 is as Ely says above (post #6). It's the best way for me.
Also, wow! 18 queens in one swarm