Rooftops, my results are in!

[Finman]

.
If you give oxalic acid in winter, it does not save those winter bees. Mite has allready violated them.

However, mite is my friend. It killed feral black bees from Finland and lazy beekeeping. We have now only good bees and good beekeepers. lazy and stupid beekeepers will loose their hives in 2 years. Our climate gives no mercy.

Mite killed mad bee strains too because hives must be nursed quite intensively. In good old days you need only exract honey and you got a new swarm to hive if you lost bees.

There is enough to do with hives. i don't want to play with mites. I minimize my work with mite. It must be a routine job. I am not mitekeeper.

 

[Finman]

antipathy

None from me. I just get hissed off because some advocate it to all beeks regardless. I simply try to redress the balance, by demonstrating it need not always be used automatically; and that it doesn't make a jot of difference to those that requeen each year, so they are free to do it without regard for any warnings about dosing the queen more than once in her lifetime.

Others may not be requeening every year and perhaps need to be a little more conservative with their chemical sloshing and just stop and consider whether they actually need to do it, for the sake of the bees - or for the sake of their pocket.

I, too, do not use apiguard (very often). But I do not advocate all beeks to follow my regime, as some may get into trouble......I certainly have to think about what I am doing and when. I prefer that way to some of the alternatives.

RAB

rab, you don't even read my text. You are continueing claims which are not true.
Like that queen changing. It has drawn from hat.

You balance what? you invent your own varroa strategy and others are blind who does not do same way.
As far as I know, you have done not a single research on the backround of your claims.

Trickling has been used 10 years. i have used 7 years. It is the best method what I have seen but it is a bad businees to beekeeping stuff seller. I have killed mites 24 years. That experience must be enough to play this game. i have never counted them.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

I only have only ten years of experience with the mite.

I have used oxalic spray, oxalic trickle and oxalic sublimation among a host of other strategies which are deemed appropriate at the time.

I made no direct claims about you in particular, but as they say in England, if the cap fits, wear it.

Like that queen changing

I thought you could not possibly disagree with that statement? I am sure I am right, you can't?

Until all warnings of 'only once a year' and/or 'dose each queen only once' have been fully rescinded by the experts who have issued these warnings previously, I will stick with the best information I have to hand or have read in the past. There is usually fire with the smoke.

I do not invent anything. All the IPM strategies I use are well documented. There is no formal 'plan', as you say; just action at the appropriate times, dependent on the needs of the colony. If that includes oxalic acid, so be it.

But I DON'T DO IT AUTOMATICALLY! That is the difference between us, I suppose.

You do it automatically; I think about it first, and make my decision based on the information, at hand, at the time.

I am not the only person in the world who does not treat with oxalic acid automatically; indeed, there are some who simply do not include oxalic acid in their arsenal . Why? Because they don't need it!

When you change your attitude from attacking all who do not necessarily use it as a weapon against (sometimes non-existant) mites, I will then stop giving the alternatives to 'doing it automatically'.

No problems. Happy beekeeping.

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

.
Stupid debating. I have overcome this 5 years on these forums.
Allways there are beekeepers who have that ultimate attitude but still they drive with car against red lights. poisons in foundations and what ever.


It is good that many know nowadays how to do it. oliver, you have fine attitude but it is too far from practical.

 

[bobandbec]

Rab
Could you possibly point me towards the statements made regarding the use of OA more than once in the life of a queen.
I am not coming down on either side with regards to OA treatment and if there is good evidence that more than one application of OA is detrimental to the queens "well-being" I would be very interested to read it.

Thanks

Peter

 

[Finman]

.
Nanetti & all made just a reseach where they gived 4 successive trickling every 16 days periods. No harm to queens or colony wellfare.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology says:

“You can treat your colonies with a liquid mixture of OA and sugar but be careful. The liquid acid shortens the life of the bees. There is no problem during summer because the bee’s life not longer than approximately 6 weeks. The problem starts with winter bees--do not treat your winter bees more than one time with liquid OA. When using liquid OA bees get wet and have to clean each other. The result is, the acid ends up in their stomach and during winter without a cleaning flight it shortens the life of the bees. Two treatments on winter bees might kill the colony. Liquid OA is a slow killer and bees will probably die after a few weeks or month instead reaching the next season.”

 

[Finman]

.
Heinz Kaemmerer does not know what he is saying.

Seppo Korpela has been 10 years in the Europen varroa group. He example invented the "seam" method. He surely knows what he has done.

Our experts say that winter cluster weakens but never die.

 

[bobandbec]

Anybody know who Heinz Kaemmerer is and what the attributed statement above is based on, research etc? I'd like to be able to see what the evidence is for the statement.
I wonder also what are the effects of two treatments with any other varroa treatment in comparison?

Peter

 

[Finman]

.
It seems that we know Heinz Kaemmerer now. Money stinks merely good!

Heilyser Technology Ltd. in British Columbia, Canada also makes two types of vaporizers. See www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm


Does vaporization hurt the bees?

Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: “We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.” “With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.” Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.

 

[Finman]

I wonder also what are the effects of two treatments with any other varroa treatment in comparison?

Peter

Two treatmenst is not needed in trickling. The effect of trickling lasts 4 weeks. The efficacy of one handling is so good that no another hanglins is needed.

I think that Seppo Korpela as a researcher just test, what happens with two treantments and the answer is: in practice nothing.

Problem is that when you trickle the bees, it seems that during first week mites drop quite little. What you normally do in that case: you give more. It is same with vaporazing.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Anybody know who Heinz Kaemmerer is and what the attributed statement above is based on, research etc? I'd like to be able to see what the evidence is for the statement.
I wonder also what are the effects of two treatments with any other varroa treatment in comparison?

Peter

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=49

 

[bobandbec]

I did see this article previously but it really doesn't give a good indication of the interest of this person in relation to this subject and what evidence has been collected to substantiate the statement quoted above.

The danger with the internet is that a search will nearly always bring up a document which can be used to "substantiate" a statement made but that document must be verfiable and based upon facts which can be given in evidence.

In my own limited circumstances I know that more than one application of OA to the same queen(s) has not led to any discernable difference in the performance of said queen(s).
And I do not in any way offer this forward as evidence that multiple applications of OA do not affect the colony. It's not based upon research just my own personal experience.

On the other hand I do wonder what effect more than one application of thymol based preparations might have upon the queen or the bees in a colony.
Peter

 

[Hivemaker.]

The danger with the internet is that a search will nearly always bring up a document which can be used to "substantiate" a statement made but that document must be verfiable and based upon facts which can be given in evidence.

I agree with that,but there are also plenty of peer reviewed research papers which state the effects, good and bad,about oxalic, on the internet and also lots of links to them on this forum over the years.

With regards EO's,they have been in use in beekeeping for over 70 years, and appear to do a great job,and with regards to what one dose of thymol may do to bee's,well one dose that is in there syrup, and lasts them for five months during winter has never appeared to do any harm in 70 odd years of use,and EO's have also got plenty of research papers availible on the internet,and on this forum.

 

[Finman]

Let's look wider, what fobias we have among beekeeping. That fobia needs a real existence what we may hate.

What I have done wrong in beekeeping and I am blaimed for that:

1. clip queen wing

2. I crush queen between my fingers

3. I use old brood combs as super combs

4. I feed soya flour (gene manipulated)

5. I heat hives with electrict (blame is that I try to get too much honey)

6. I use plastic hives

7. I take all honey away from hive and feed sugar for winter

8. Cane sugar is poison

9. I use foundations and foundations are poisonous

10. I like artificial insemination

11. I have not mesh floor

12. I do not count mites ( every modern beekeeper has)

13. I do not use excluder

14. I hate superceded queens and swarm queens (not selected)

15. I winter in 2 box (professionals use only one)

16. I am not a young beekeeper, only average age ( I was 48 years ago the youngest in our society). Youg beekeepers have good ideas.

17 I do not understand that other countries are different from Finland, even if I have studied geography in University. I have visited in England 6 times, but I do not understand how hot and cold it is.

18 Sorry, I forgot the frame. Bees are forced to make square combs.

.

 

[Haughton Honey]

15. I winter in 2 box (professionals use only one)

Not so in every case. Two of our largest commercial bee farmers of the last 70 years here in the UK overwintered on double brood Nationals.

Alec Gale being one of them.

 

[Finman]

.
Of course they do. Those are axioms which I meet all the time.

Bee races have axioms too " local Black Devils are the best bees"

"Save the Black Devil"

 

[rix]

Finman, don't touch Black Devil, the British will get very very angry!

 

[RoofTops]

Finman is also referring to Langstroth which are about 50% bigger than a National brood box.

 

[Skyhook]

10. I like artificial insemination

I suppose it whiles away the long winter evenings!