Requeening hive with better genetics - emergency cells

[Finman]

Yet there are poor 'normal' queens and very good 'emergency' queens.

How do you quess them before they have emerged.
I have seen enough queens during 60 years, and I know propability, how to get good queens. And I at least try to rear good queens.

" very good emergency queen". You see it next year."

I get many kind of queens when B take larvae from crossed mother queen.

 

[Swarm]

Bees raise queens that's for sure.

 

[jeff33]

What do we class as poor though? A lot of it will be down to poor mating which can happen with any queen.
I currently have 1 supercedure on the way, the queen is a 2021 queen from a demaree which I would have expected to be of a good quality.
On the other hand, my strongest hive so far is led by a queen raised using the op suggested method.

 

[Swarm]

What do we class as poor though? A lot of it will be down to poor mating which can happen with any queen.
I currently have 1 supercedure on the way, the queen is a 2021 queen from a demaree which I would have expected to be of a good quality.
On the other hand, my strongest hive so far is led by a queen raised using the op suggested method.

Absolutely. Bees raise new queens and with a good supply of nurse bees, they should be fit and healthy, whether they mate well is governed by so many things. I've got two sisters from last year, one looks a goner and the other has brood on fourteen combs.
I mentioned this idea of 'scrub' queens to my Bulgarian friend and he just points at hives with a tower of supers and laughs.

 

[Antipodes]

I don't see how this method triggers swarming? They're put in a quenless situation to change an unworthy queen, this is not as a reactive manipulation because swarm preps have started. If it was the latter then yes the op would have to go back to cut down to. In his case it's probably not necessary unless you want to ensure that only the best looking cell(s) are kept.

I'm not sure why either, except mine have always swarmed in spring when they make emergency queen cells (and where I leave more than one queen cell). I thought it was just that I've had swarmy bees or something, but the season before last I had a queen going well, who, unlike my standard mongrels who have always swarmed on the virgins, was second generation from an Italian queen reared by queen breeders ... (her and her offspring were still yellowish). She died suddenly and so the colony made the standard bunch of emergency cells. A slow learner I guess, but I thought because of the different genetics they wouldn't swarm on the emergency virgin(s) replacements. Anyhow, I was sitting at the computer one morning looking at the UK Beekeeping forum and my daughter calls from another room just two words.... "Dad! Swarm!". They were an easy catch and I was able to prevent further swarms from them. Anyhow, that's the last time I'll leave more than one cell.

 

[Finman]

Yet there are poor 'normal' queens and very good 'emergency' queens.

And very good normal queens and really sad emergency queens. It helps, if you sieve first emergency queens with queen excluder.

And remember! Swarm queens are the best!


This was a beginners' sector, right!

 

[Mabee]

Thank you for lots of interesting feedback, I shall continue with the manipulation and report back as to her quality later in the year!

 

[Mabee]

Update on this thread.

I actually now have two hives requeening. The one this thread started with currently still has the queen in situ but I've caged her so she cannot lay this week, then will remove her this weekend and give a frame of eggs from a better colony, I thought this was an easier route.

I also have a nuc which has (hopefully) started raising queen cells from the same nice colony having given them a frame of eggs and larvae already. I'll check them this weekend for cells.

Then I thought if the nuc has QC's, couldn't I just pop in a protector or cover in tin foil and put one into the other hive I'm planning on giving the eggs to, they would then be a week further forward with the same genetics. But, question... would the full colony make better queens due to numbers and resources than the nuc?

 

[elainemary]

Update on this thread.

I actually now have two hives requeening. The one this thread started with currently still has the queen in situ but I've caged her so she cannot lay this week, then will remove her this weekend and give a frame of eggs from a better colony, I thought this was an easier route.

I also have a nuc which has (hopefully) started raising queen cells from the same nice colony having given them a frame of eggs and larvae already. I'll check them this weekend for cells.

Then I thought if the nuc has QC's, couldn't I just pop in a protector or cover in tin foil and put one into the other hive I'm planning on giving the eggs to, they would then be a week further forward with the same genetics. But, question... would the full colony make better queens due to numbers and resources than the nuc?

Depends how populous the Nuc is. Everything I’ve read and listened to the experts on queen rearing you need c 8 good frames of nurse bees and brood. Also a key criteria for success is good quantities of pollen (a frame full) and open stores available, in a flow or feed.
Many queen rearers use the emergency response (queenless cell raisers), other users swam and supersedure (swarm box or queen right finishers), the main thing as Finman has said the best queens come from larva that have been fed copiously from day 4. Personally I would not try to raise a good queen in a 6 frame Nuc unless it was rammed with nurse bees and was being fed and had loads of pollen.

 

[Mabee]

Depends how populous the Nuc is. Everything I’ve read and listened to the experts on queen rearing you need c 8 good frames of nurse bees and brood. Also a key criteria for success is good quantities of pollen (a frame full) and open stores available, in a flow or feed.
Many queen rearers use the emergency response (queenless cell raisers), other users swam and supersedure (swarm box or queen right finishers), the main thing as Finman has said the best queens come from larva that have been fed copiously from day 4. Personally I would not try to raise a good queen in a 6 frame Nuc unless it was rammed with nurse bees and was being fed and had loads of pollen.

Thank you. I did think the full hive would do a better job, i’ll stick to the original plan. The nuc may be merged or requeened if the queen is not particularly good.

 

[elainemary]

Thank you. I did think the full hive would do a better job, i’ll stick to the original plan. The nuc may be merged or requeened if the queen is not particularly good.

Trouble with doing that way, is the time it takes to realise the queen is not that much good. If I was you I’d unite the Nuc to the main one and take a Nuc out ONCE an emergency cell is raised and SEALED in the main hive. They’ll build emergency cells on more than one frame ifyou add a second frame, or you could carefully cut out a cell including the wax around it, then attach onto another comb (eg with cocktail stick) with some sealed brood on.

Then make up your Nuc. Just add the comb with your chosen sealed cell with nurse bees, another comb with brood and bees, a shake of nurse bees if leaving in same apiary and some stores into your Nuc. You’ll achieve a better fed cell and a better queen by doing it this way.

 

[Mabee]

So best laid plans and all that…Last week I caged the queen thinking they’d not create cells since her pheromones would still be in the hive and she couldn’t lay eggs making it easier to remove her and add a frame of eggs. Wrong. She was still there in the cage and capped queen cells everywhere! Hopefully I got them all, they weren’t happy at all, then a little rain shower started out of nowhere! Also removed all the drone comb I could find. Anyway, they now have frames of eggs and young larvae from nicer colony, fingers …

 

[Erichalfbee]

Also removed all the drone comb I could find

Why did you do that?

 

[Mabee]

Why did you do that?

They are not particularly ‘friendly’ bees, I don’t want their genetics mixing with other bees populations in the area.

My nice hives are encouraged to have drone brood!