Requeening hive with better genetics - emergency cells

[Mabee]

So, I may be told this is not a good a plan as I think it is but here goes…(I am looking to check i’ve not missed something vital here)
I have a hive in which I don’t like the queen much. Bees not the best natured and could be better in general.
They are currently in a single commercial brood box.
I plan to
1. remove queen and 1 frame of brood, 1 of stores to a nuc (for back up only).
2. let bees in original box make q cells, go in a week later and remove all of them.
3. Give frame of eggs and larvae from a good hive.
4. wait
5. If all goes well and queen is successful, use the nuc for a new queen or reunite.

I don’t want to use split boards etc as it’s a lot of heavy lifting.

Does this sound like a viable plan? I’m trying to keep it simple!

I plan to start the process at the end of April so she’ll be going on mating flights end of May.
There are some drones about and some colonies laying drone brood now.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

making queens from emergency cells, especially in a hive in panic mode can often give mediocre results. Why not just buy in a decent queen and be done with (oh sh!t - beginning to sound like Finny!!)

 

[Mabee]

making queens from emergency cells, especially in a hive in panic mode can often give mediocre results. Why not just buy in a decent queen and be done with (oh sh!t - beginning to sound like Finny!!)

I do have 2 queens on order but won’t arrive till June sometime I believe, so thought i’d give this a try first. My current best performing hive is an emergency queen from last year. I do appreciate it sounds more difficult than just changing the queen for a new one but at least I can do something about it now.

 

[jeff33]

I do have 2 queens on order but won’t arrive till June sometime I believe, so thought i’d give this a try first. My current best performing hive is an emergency queen from last year. I do appreciate it sounds more difficult than just changing the queen for a new one but at least I can do something about it now.

That will work, done it a few times early in the season when mated queens are not available to buy. 1 of my strongest hive so far this year had the queen reared that way. By the time you introduce the good frame of eggs no other brood will need tending other than this frame so as long as the hive is strong enough Qcells will be fed properly

 

[Mabee]

That will work, done it a few times early in the season when mated queens are not available to buy. 1 of my strongest hive so far this year had the queen reared that way. By the time you introduce the good frame of eggs no other brood will need tending other than this frame so as long as the hive is strong enough Qcells will be fed properly

That’s really good to hear

 

[Antipodes]

So, I may be told this is not a good a plan as I think it is but here goes…(I am looking to check i’ve not missed something vital here)
I have a hive in which I don’t like the queen much. Bees not the best natured and could be better in general.
They are currently in a single commercial brood box.
I plan to
1. remove queen and 1 frame of brood, 1 of stores to a nuc (for back up only).
2. let bees in original box make q cells, go in a week later and remove all of them.
3. Give frame of eggs and larvae from a good hive.
4. wait
5. If all goes well and queen is successful, use the nuc for a new queen or reunite.

I don’t want to use split boards etc as it’s a lot of heavy lifting.

Does this sound like a viable plan? I’m trying to keep it simple!

I plan to start the process at the end of April so she’ll be going on mating flights end of May.
There are some drones about and some colonies laying drone brood now.

What I find here is that the bees will always swarm in spring with the virgin queen(s), (sometimes they keep swarming with the emerging virgins until the swarms are fist size), so I would go in at about day five and select a good open queen cell with a well fed grub (mark its position) and get rid of any sealed ones and then probably check again at about day seven that there is only that one queen cell on the frame.

 

[Mabee]

What I find here is that the bees will always swarm in spring with the virgin queen(s), (sometimes they keep swarming with the emerging virgins until the swarms are fist size), so I would go in at about day five and select a good open queen cell with a well fed grub (mark its position) and get rid of any sealed ones and then probably check again at about day seven that there is only that one queen cell on the frame.

do you find this even if it’s an emergency supercedure?

 

[Antipodes]

do you find this even if it’s an emergency supercedure?

Yes, I do. I don't call it emergency supersedure in the scenario you propose, but just emergency queen replacement. They don't go when the first cell is sealed (as it often the case in a swarm with the old queen) as they have to wait until they have a queen (in this case a virgin) who can fly.

 

[Mabee]

Yes, I do. I don't call it emergency supersedure in the scenario you propose, but just emergency queen replacement. They don't go when the first cell is sealed (as it often the case in a swarm with the old queen) as they have to wait until they have a queen (in this case a virgin) who can fly.

ok thank you

 

[OH honey]

So, I may be told this is not a good a plan as I think it is but here goes…(I am looking to check i’ve not missed something vital here)
I have a hive in which I don’t like the queen much. Bees not the best natured and could be better in general.
They are currently in a single commercial brood box.
I plan to
1. remove queen and 1 frame of brood, 1 of stores to a nuc (for back up only).
2. let bees in original box make q cells, go in a week later and remove all of them.
3. Give frame of eggs and larvae from a good hive.
4. wait
5. If all goes well and queen is successful, use the nuc for a new queen or reunite.

I don’t want to use split boards etc as it’s a lot of heavy lifting.

Does this sound like a viable plan? I’m trying to keep it simple!

I plan to start the process at the end of April so she’ll be going on mating flights end of May.
There are some drones about and some colonies laying drone brood now.

After last year's cold wet spring, I split a hive and let the split raise a queen from emergency cells. Unlike Jenkins it Worked a dream. Successfully overwintered both hives and both colonies have brood, are expanding and supers are on and filling. Many have the view that emergency cells produce substandard queens, however I can find no evidence to back this up, and plenty of other experienced beeks regard it as a myth. Go for it I say, hope it works out.

 

[Boston Bees]

After last year's cold wet spring, I split a hive and let the split raise a queen from emergency cells. Unlike Jenkins it Worked a dream. Successfully overwintered both hives and both colonies have brood, are expanding and supers are on and filling. Many have the view that emergency cells produce substandard queens, however I can find no evidence to back this up, and plenty of other experienced beeks regard it as a myth. Go for it I say, hope it works out.

I think these days most people acknowledge that emergency queens are just as good as any other sort as long as (crucially) there are plenty of nurse bees to feed the larva, and plenty of stores for them to draw on. The issue comes when there's a shortage of nurse bees.

 

[Finman]

The feeding period of the queen larva is 5 days.

Tre oldest emercency larvae, which become queen is 3 days old. When it has bees measured the age of first emerged queen, they have been grown from 3 days old larva. First emerged queen kills other queen cells.

When you look emergency queen cells they do not have extra dry jelly in the tube. Larva is hungry.

It is easy to see, that emergency queens are poorly fed.

It is not a big job to replace the emergency queen cell with one day old larva.

I have seen lots of emergency queen during 60 years. It is easy to rear good queen. Why to accept poorly fed queens.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Unlike Jenkins it Worked a dream

When did I say it hasn't worked for me?
The issue is that there is now a fad pushed by many BKA's of just splitting colonies willy nilly without thought of colony strength, effect on productivity etc and suitability to raise fresh queens. All in the name of not bothering to think hard about swarm control

 

[Finman]

do you find this even if it’s an emergency supercedure?

There is no such like emergency supercedure

 

[jeff33]

Yes, I do. I don't call it emergency supersedure in the scenario you propose, but just emergency queen replacement. They don't go when the first cell is sealed (as it often the case in a swarm with the old queen) as they have to wait until they have a queen (in this case a virgin) who can fly.

I don't see how this method triggers swarming? They're put in a quenless situation to change an unworthy queen, this is not as a reactive manipulation because swarm preps have started. If it was the latter then yes the op would have to go back to cut down to. In his case it's probably not necessary unless you want to ensure that only the best looking cell(s) are kept.

 

[Finman]

Guys, if you do not need double brood where you need good queens?

When you give to the queen enough space, then you will know is the queen good or average.

 

[enrico]

What have you got to lose by trying? I have only ever bought queen's once and after two years I was replacing stroppy daughters! I use my own stock, sometimes swarm and sometimes emergency. If they are crap they get replaced!

 

[Swarm]

The point about enough nurse bees is a valid one in any case of raising a queen. The OP is removing the original queen with minimal resources, leaving a stronger unit for the task. I know a Bulgarian beekeeper who uses this method regularly.

 

[Finman]

When you change the larva in swarming cells, the larvae get the best care. Bees accept 100%.

But no one is so fool, that he crafts 3 days old larva. It is same as you claim that emergency queen is as good normal queen.

 

[Swarm]

Yet there are poor 'normal' queens and very good 'emergency' queens.