Removal of a super frame from brood box

[WingCommander]

Hi All

My first post here so be gentle!

I recently acquired a new hive complete with bees. The beekeeper who gave them to me had placed a super frame in the brood box which the bees had obviously built out to fit the space and which, upon receipt, was filled with drone larvae in the built out cells below the frame. We checked the hive again together last week and removed the drone brood and wax from the bottom of the frame and move the frame back in the brood box away from the main brood pattern. The hope was that that any remaining brood would hatch and I would be able to replace with a standard frame as I would prefer more workers and less drones!

I checked the hive today and the busy little bees have completely rebuilt the wax below the frame and also the queen has totally filled the top with brood. There is more brood on this super frame than on the adjacent (newer) frame nearer the main brood.

I am still keen to remove this frame but don't really want to just swap it out and 'lose' all the brood that is in the frame. What would you suggest?

Photo of the frame in question attached.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Poly Hive]

It is there for a good reason, the owner was using it to remove varroa.

Plan on removing it in the autumn.

PH

 

[MandF]

It was my understanding that best practice was to do 2 rounds of drone sacrifice, and not to do it all summer?

Primarily so we don't end up selecting varroa which prefer worker brood.

 

[MandF]

Wingcommander, welcome

I'n not sure how much you know about varroa, but the mite prefers to enter drone brood as it takes a few extra days to emerge, and therefore the mites can produce more young varroa.

One of the management techniques for varroa control is to use a shallow frame in a brood box because, as you can see, the bees use it to raise drones. This is attractive for varroa, so the idea is to allow them to cap drone brood, then sacrifice it by cutting it off (you can freeze the offcut to kill the drone larvae/varroa, or feed to chickens/birds). You then do this again for a total of 2 cycles, after which point you remove the shallow frame and replace it with a deep.

If you want to not lose the worker brood at the end of this then I would suggest putting the frame in a super (above a queen excluder), and when they have all hatched you can remove the frame.

It is also important to remove the capped drone brood before they hatch, because if you dont you have effectively created a varroa factory and defeated the object of the exercise

 

[Poly Hive]

Varroa prefer drone brood by a factor of 7:1 (info which may be outdated) compared to worker brood.

PH

 

[MandF]

Varroa prefer drone brood by a factor of 7:1 (info which may be outdated) compared to worker brood.

PH

I read 10:1 but I agree - leaving a shallow in all season will continue to work, but as I said I read somewhere (or was told at my association) that you should only do this for 2 brood cycles, although you could do it at the beginning and end of the season, so that we dont start selecting varroa which prefer worker brood.

Has anyone else read or heard this? I had a quick google to see if it was a FERA recommendation but couldnt find anything...

 

[Poly Hive]

In a word no but my info comes from some years ago now when I went to Marburg in Germany for a Varroa course, this when it had just arrived in Devon.

Not sure I see the thrust of the argument TBH. Given the extra days drone brooding gives them why would they prefer worker... they are not bright they just go through a life cycle.

Welcome to the forum Wing Commander and if you use that suit as intended I tips me hat to you sir... not a chance I would jump out a plane regardless of kit.

PH

 

[MandF]

The theory is that varroa "smell" drone brood and thats what causes them to jump off the bee into the cell.

Some are either less fussy or dont mind worker brood - its the genes of these ones which we would be artificially boosting.

In the same way we selected pyrethroid resistent mites.

Thats the logic behind not overdoing the drone sacrifice anyway.

 

[oliver90owner]

Thats the logic behind not overdoing the drone sacrifice anyway.

Is this just somebody's 'logic' or 'theory', or is there any documented evidence that it is the case? Is so, let's be seeing it - the justification for the claim.

As I see it, there will always be preference for drone brood because of the greater reproductive ratio. If they were all gone, varroa increase would be that much slower all the while. Selection for maximum reproductive ratio is always going to be the Darwinian winner.

 

[WingCommander]

Thanks for the responses.

I understand the principal of the sacrificial brood but just don't think it is necessary.

Should I move the frame 'upstairs'? That seems like the simplest solution but would it work?

PolyHive: Yes - I fly myself as well...

 

[Poly Hive]

Provided you don't take the queen with you then yes no issues apart from chopping off the drone brood.

PH

 

[MandF]

Thats the logic behind not overdoing the drone sacrifice anyway.

Is this just somebody's 'logic' or 'theory', or is there any documented evidence that it is the case? Is so, let's be seeing it - the justification for the claim.

As I see it, there will always be preference for drone brood because of the greater reproductive ratio. If they were all gone, varroa increase would be that much slower all the while. Selection for maximum reproductive ratio is always going to be the Darwinian winner.

But its not going to be the option for maximum reproductive ratio if it doesnt reproduce the most is it! That is the whole point of drone sacrifice - to stop varroa reproducing.

For the logic you might want to google "genetic mutation".

 

[oliver90owner]

For the logic you might want to google "genetic mutation".

I don't want the 'logic'. I want some hard evidence, not some crackpot idea.

A link to some real evidence, or it is a non-starter, someones whim and fancy?

 

[Finman]

Thats the logic behind not overdoing the drone sacrifice anyway.

Is this just somebody's 'logic' or 'theory', or is there any documented evidence that it is the case? Is so, let's be seeing it - the justification for the claim.
.

You are just wrong oliver. But in same study varroa prefered to go to old black combs.

One reason is clear. Drones have long brood cycle. It is good for mites to get more adult offsprings from drone brood.

Bees rear drones here or there. If they have a special places where to do combs, frames are more tidy.

But my experience says that when you find mites in drone colmbs, things are too far.

I have had years when I cannot find mites with bare eye and not in drone combs, but however, in Autumn I get 300-500 mites from every hive.

Then, when I have found mites, I have losses in winter clusters.

.

 

[Finman]

I don't want the 'logic'. I want some hard evidence,

If I could wish something in this forum, I would want that rubbish writings stop in this forum. With logic or not.

First you fight against oxalic acid in this forum and now you got into your head that drone system is rot. ---What is the logic in your personal science?

 

[MandF]

For the logic you might want to google "genetic mutation".

I don't want the 'logic'. I want some hard evidence, not some crackpot idea.

A link to some real evidence, or it is a non-starter, someones whim and fancy?

There is only one crackpot around here.

ok, so you do not understand evolution, lets leave that aside (I bet you spanked your hive with pyrethroids too didnt you).

Do you agree with the idea of leaving a shallow in the brood box for drone sacrifice all season? Do you do it?

 

[WingCommander]

Just to clarify my post from last night when I got in after the football and some lager based drinks...

I understand the drone sacrifice for varroa checking but don't see the need to leave it in all year.

So is just moving it upstairs into the super the easiest way to allow the brood to hatch (is that the right word?) and not get any more brood in there? Will everything be OK with the existing brood in the frame and should I then, when it is hatched, remove the frame and replace with foundation in the super?

 

[Finman]

ok, so you do not understand evolution, lets leave that aside (I bet you spanked your hive with pyrethroids too didnt you).

Do you agree with the idea of leaving a shallow in the brood box for drone sacrifice all season? Do you do it?

Guys. You do not understand about evolution nothing

Varroa evolution is so that it is pest of Apis cerana. In that host it is harmless because it lives only in drone brood.

Then it jumped to another specie A. mellifera about 100 years ago. Since that started evolution of mellifera with varroa. Varroa has speread almost everywhere and it has bee great succes. Varroa has developed many mutations during that time.

So, now English 2-hive owners are going to arrange mini evolution in their hives. It is easier to get winning number to lotto. Why don't you concentrate to that. Not first time...

.
That about mini science....

 

[Finman]

.

Every drone brood produce 10 mites in 4 weeks cycle.
10 drones procude 100 mites.

Then 50 pairs of mites go into drones again and produce 500 mites.

250 pairs go into drones and produce 2500 mites.

Draw from that....

Hives rear drones only couple of months. Story is not endless.

 

[MandF]

It isnt just about checking for varroa, it is about knocking back their numbers, it should be considered as part of the IPM for varroa.

As long as you have a queen excluder between the brood box and super then the queen cannot get up to lay in it.

If you have a honey super on already then you could leave the frame in, the bees will clean it out enough to store honey. If you havent yet (there is still enough space in the brood box) then remove the super afterwards.

I would also fill the remaining space in the super (if you put one on for this task) with foundation - it will prevent them building brace comb in the empty space - which is wasted effort for them - if they want to build comb in the super then at least you'll get some super frames (partially) drawn!